Urgh. After all these years this case still makes me sick to my stomach.
This thing was always so weird. I kind of wondered if the brother did it and the parents covered for him.
I think most grand juries would indict a ham sandwich if they could.
I think Patsy was the one who was really into all that beauty pageant stuff, so on the one hand, I find it hard to believe she would intentionally harm her daughter, but I do believe she was involved in some way.
I was a little older than her when all of this happened so all that I know I learned off the internet. It seems really, really shady. The dad and two friends found her in the wine cellar? Why didn't they search the house immediately after they discovered her missing? Yes there was a ransom note, but would you still not frantically search the house hoping it all was a joke?
It makes me so freaking mad and so sad that there's never been justice for that little girl!! I've gone from one end to the other with this one: they did it, they covered for the son to they were innocent and back to A. Ugh, I don't know.
I still wonder what on earth happened. This is such a strange case.
The "ham sandwich" line being particularly adroit in this instance.
There's a lot of weird shit with regard to criminal procedure implied in Enty's blurb.
@*karen*, I too have always suspected that her brother killed her and her parents covered. The note was in Patsy's (poorly disguised) handwriting and it mentioned an amount of money that was odd, yet identical to a bonus Jon had just gotten at work.
I think it's commonly believed that the authorities in CO royally fucked up this case from the get-go? Am I the only one who recalls that?
Patsy is dead and IIRC, Daddy is a politician in Northern Michigan.
Wonder what became of the brother?
Thanks, B! (it's true)
You're right, ReesesPeace – I remember that as well.
Burke is in college, or maybe graduated recently. He was asked again by authorities in CO to discuss what he knew.
I believe it's been determined that her brother could not have possibly killed her.
I still think Patsy killed her unintentionally over wetting the bed. The housekeeper testified that Patsy was really upset about her wetting the bed still.
I invite anyone who wishes to comment about this case, to please visit 'acandyrose.com'—They have all the ACTUAL evidence & statements there. I invite anyone to go to 'Forums for Justice' or 'Websleuths' and read about the size-12 underwear, the handwriting/linguistic analysis, the objects found with her, the fibers, the timeline, the 911 call, EVERYTHING. It's fascinating.
What most of you have been hearing in the media has been Ramsey spin.
I'm a close follower of this case for years. The first person who brings up Mary Lacy and 'touch DNA', imma flip this table over!
@figgy, that's exactly why I thought they were covering up. And I could believe that they cared more about their family image than getting justice for their daughter. If people found out that their son killed his sister, they would look like awful parents.
@ReesesPeace, I remember the police screwing everything up, too.
Something was definitely off. I mean the note was in Patsy's handwriting for goodness sake, they HAD to be involved somehow. I hope one day the truth will come out, but I won't hold my breath. That poor child.
I just want to thank Enty for the clicky link up there. Good job.
I don't know if I have the heart to look at everything, but thanks for the 411, libby. I was just wondering what all the actual evidence looked like.
I always thought the dad did it and mom knew.
The DA's daughter-in-law at the time was Rielle Hunter, aka John Edwards' mistress. Just some strange trivia I decided to share.
mikey—Burke has graduated and last I heard works here in Indianapolis.And it has NEVER been indicated he couldn't have done it.In fact, the latest (released) info is pointing more in that direction.
In CO at the time, Burke was legally too young to be charged with anything, but the Ramsey's wouldn't have known that in the aftermath. KWIM?
I'll spend all day here. Unsolved crimes are a hobby.
@Libby, no apologies necessary. I'm a true crime buff, too. I know, kinda strange for someone who has been a victim to be fascinate, but there ya go! I have long stopped trying to figure out that strangeness in myself. Thanks for the link to that site; I'll be checking it out. /hangs head
I'll just throw this out–It is well-documented that BOTH 6-year old JonBenet AND 9-year old Burke had regressed in their toilet training. Not just pee, you guys. JB shit her bed frequently. ALL the underwear she owned had poop stains.
A pair of boy's pajama bottoms were found on the day of the murder at the foot of JB's bed. They had feces in them too.
Oh, and the candy box found in JB's room, with feces smeared on it? They never tested whose poop it was.
All this stuff has been buried, probably for one reason.
Thanks Libby, like I said earlier I know next to nothing about this case and Wiki isn't exactly the most reliable source.
I am so fascinated by cases like this, the answer is out there, we are probably staring right at it. So why can't anyone see it?
Thanks, Reese. This case will get you worked up, once you see the ONLY stuff the police & DA didn't leak right away. It's the stuff that points to the obvious perps. jmo
libby…… great hobby! Just don't invite "M" in:)
Like many cases that don't get resolved properly, it seems to have been bungled first at the local level. When that happens, and people involved have time to tamper with evidence, the problems just grow exponentially. This is exactly how people escape justice, and how they get wrongly convicted.
Same here Lib. I've checked our both of those sites in the past and I find them fascinating. I personally believe Burke, probably unintentionally killed her and the parents covered for him. People think he was too young to commit the crime but children younger than Burke was have commuted murder.
Are you implying incestuous relations Lib?
Was M the prosecuter who hated Matt Damon? I was 10 when this happened, and have not followed this at all. I don't think we will ever find out what actually happened, unfortunately.
Libby, who in your opinion did it? And thanks for the links, I'm also fascinated by these things.
Libby…. What conclusions are you drawing from the regressions in toilet training? Whose feces do you believe was in her room? I get that it would suggest the brother, but why was he also regressing at nine years old? Were they both being molested?
Thanks Libby – I was reversed on Burke.
Something was going on in that house that wasn't quite right….
I think she may be implying that the kids were being sexually abused. This is in reply to libby and Ashlea, btw.
@Ashlea: as an incest survivor, I will say that I wouldn't be too surprised if incest was involved in this case. If, as Libby stated up above, there was toilet training regression, I would say, yes, JonBenet was likely being sexually abused. Please note: I said LIKELY.
I hope M doesn't have GoogleAlert. I haven't seen in her in a while, I honestly do wonder what her input is on this seeing as she is all about crime solving.
I've been fascinated with this case since day one – and have always felt in my gut, that it was the son. So many strange twists in the trial, regarding evidence, testimony and what was and wasn't admissable. Does anyone remember that wacky pedophile, who was living in Thailand, and "confessed" to the murder?
Libby – thanks for the link, you've mentioned several things that I wasn't aware of. Toilet-training regression can many times be symptomatic of abuse – both psychological and sexual. I always thought it could have been a chain of abuse, from parent to child, and sibling to sibling.
I'm very familiar with incest and survivors, one thing that sticks out is the stomach problems. I'm not saying that this was the case by any means. I'm just saying what I know about. I have not checked the links out but I'm headed there now. I am also fascinated by true crime stories.
Wow, thanks for sharing Reese! I'm sorry you had to experience that, you seem like a strong woman, I am giving you cyber hugs right now!
The mom always seemed so weird and rehearsed to me. I remember video of her rolling around and playing in the driveway with their dog shortly after the murder. It was very strange.
Who is 'M', and what relation do they have to the Ramsey case?
I thought so Fru.
@Malibu – She Who Must Not Be Named is someone who commented up a storm around here a while back, claiming to have been a prosecuting attorney in these types of cases. I am trying to be careful with my words so I don't inadvertantly send up the bat signal via google alert. Anywhoo, she left here and started her own blog.
Oh yeah, I remember her. Did she turn out to be nuts or something?
Thank you for sharing that with us Reese's. sexual abuse is such a disgusting crime. A crime of power. It's nice to see you taking the power back so to speak and I agree it is probably likely sexual abuse occurred.
http://formercriminalprosecutor.blogspot.com/ Yes, nuts. But correct about Ramsey and the housekeeper's testimony before the Grand Jury.
Who knows what happened. The whole thing is so disgusting and tragic, horrifying and sickening. I think that they took a tiny adorable little girl and dressed her up as a porn star or pin up girl. All of her outfits and photos were in daisy dukes, short shirts, short skirts, looking like a mini playboy model, complete with the poses. If someone in the family did it, or if some pervert fan did it, it's still wrong how they do that to little girls.
@Agent – I was putting together a response, choosing my words carefully, and they you just out and say it :-). Thank you.
B.P, you should go take a look at her blog, just for shits and giggles. She is INSANE.
Thank you to JSierra and Ashlea. I have good days and bad days. Today is a good day and I'm able to share without hurting too much. I've accepted that it's a part of me: I had no choice in the matter. I try to stay positive and I do remember most of the time that not all human beings suck.
Ahhh…got it. Thanks, Frufa and Agent.
Frufra (or Phruphra!) Hon, you tried, you really, really did! lol =)
seaward…http://marciewogan.blogspot.com/ This is the woman that claims m is a fraud. CDAN is mentioned.
Reeses – I wasn't being sarcastic – I really did appreciate Agent for just saying it – I was fitzing around trying to say just the right thing, when the reality is – who cares?? Agent always has my back :-).
Hope you are off to a good start to the week. We're having some spring-like temps for a few days, so I've got to get out there and enjoy. Xoxo, RP.
Ooooh, yes! Thanks, Agent!
Fru, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. I thought it was funny that you were trying to avoid a google alert and well, I think that's been busted. LOL
I'm having a good start in spite of vertigo. Temps should be going up after today: how the hell did I live in MI and NY?!?! Have a great day and a fabulous week! Enjoy the warm up and all that jazz. xoxox
Fru, you got it! Better to put it here than to give her Google hits.
Libby, I used to be a regular contributor on Forums for Justice under a different name than this one. All I had to do was read the original statement by Detective Linda Arndt (sp?), who was there that horrible morning, and I was convinced that there was no intruder (and it wasn't the young son). The forensic linguistics on the ransom note was of huge fascination to me.
Hey all, First time poster, longtime lurker…Please don't jump down my throat for this but, the Ramseys are into the occultist scene, as are some high ranking people in CO,… That is why there was so much complicity in the coverup from officials. Jb's death might have been accidental, but her parents were/are into a scene that embraces paedophilia. Fact.
Mr. Kim is deputy coroner in the CA county where we live. He said from the beginning that the whole scene was completely staged and then staged again to make it look like the "doofy police came in and contaminated the crime scene, so gosh darn it, the evidence is tainted." and who the hell are these people who can pay for this level of cover up and have it stick? I'm going to be spending a bunch of time on these websites today, thanks guys. My laundry will suffer and I will not vacuum. Neither of these things make me sad.
And Slim, that's not a fact. It's an exciting paperback you'd buy at an airport. Murders within the family are usually much more simple than than a plot that would require 1,000 Illuminati keeping their mouths shut for 16 years. Please read evidence.
I enjoy M's posts, she's very knowledgeable. The only thing I didn't agree with was her posting her blog address when others aren't allowed to. I hope she weighs in on this.
Ree-HEE-lly? I didn't know that. Wow, this is getting interesting (seriously). That would explain some hereforeto unexplained things.
I posted some strong fighting words with nothing to back it up. True. Best I can submit is watch mrs Ramsey's behaviour. Both parents actually, but the wife…. something was off and I wonder if she was not a victim of abuse as well.
JB was a satanic sacrifice.
I know the signs because I have a family member (dead and from a different generation) who was into witchcraft. I have seen a sacrifice go ' wrong'. It sounds alien and disgusting and scifi- but there are people who are into this. Scoffing at the improbability doesn't make it improbable.
Libby, right on.
I remember the police bungling this badly, and regardless of who did it, I always felt strongly the Ramseys knew SOMETHING they weren't telling, and that poor little girl never got justice.
Also, Prolixe, in my second post, the sacrifice that 'went wrong' was a mother member submitting her son for sacrifice.It's had to fathom if you've never in your real world experience (not movie /fiction) known someone to be completely heartless or family dysfunction that sadistic.
Both Jonbenet and her brother were being used to further dad's career, pimped out to the pedophile ring Ramsey was involved with. Exchange for favors. Very simple. We'll be finding out more about how this was also going on with Sandusky's "charity" at Penn State; there is already a very big (but quiet) investigation going on into the pedophile ring there. People need to learn how to read the signs.
^^ What Feiecia said. J Savile and the BBC anyone?
We live in a very strange world. Most people can't handle the truth— and I am not being snide.
Woah – there are some very strong allegations here without a shred of evidence. I'm not saying it isn't possible but these are pretty far out thoughts without any proof.
That should have said "Whoa."
Let us not confuse 'witchcraft' with misguided Satanism, or whatever it was your family member was into, Slim. I can assure you that witchcraft (or more formally, Wicca) has NOTHING to do with human sacrifice.
I've read a lot of true crime books, some occult-based, and apparently several thousand people go missing every year for this very reason. It's a very real problem.
Hey Libby,I found Websleuths when the Caylee Anthony case first broke and followed the whole thing there. I have ventured to the JB forum and acandyrose.com and is truly amazing the good work and sleuthing that has been done. I wish that I would have found it during the Scott Peterson days. I have tried to go back to read that, but there are soooo many threads to weed through it is nearly impossible. Any true crime buffs though should definitely check out those sites. The moderators really take backing up information with facts and links and not fighting with others over opinions seriously so it stays on topic and the crazies are kinda weeded out.
I am not splitting hairs or getting into semantics. Switch out the word 'witchcraft' and replace it with whatever floats.
My point stands and I know of what I speak.
^^ all of the above said in a polite not snarky tone. I want to be understood/heard not start a fight.
@Slim: Understood. I just know a few witches who would be extremely offended to be lumped in with the likes of that lot.
@ tuxedo Cat, it is real. And 'polite society' is very involved.
I mean there are regular joes too…. it is in very strata of civilization. But watch, paedophilia and bestiality are being normalized as we speak, via media. As more of these things get revealed people will blanche less because they've been desensitized slowly.
@Libby who do you think did it? I've always thought it was the mother, but it sounds like you know a lot more about the case than I do!
I read a little bit on websleuths. Does anyone know what the BDI theory is and what does BDI stand for? I live in Colorado and remember when that happened. I have always thought the parents were involved in some way.
I always thought the mother had something to do with it. First of all, toddler pageants are abusive, in my opinion. Also, it was proven that the ransom note, which was written INSIDE the house, was for the same amount as the dad's bonus. Coincidence? I think not. Also, what murderer is going to take the the time to sit down and pen a ransom note after committing a crime? Come ON.
@amy Jo: If I recall correctly, that stood for Burke Did It. Which I feel is preposterous.
That ransom note was a red herring designed to buy time and focus efforts outside of the house, when the body was in actual fact in the basement. These are the details I remember: The police tell the father and his friend to search the house, and the father makes a bee-line to the so-called 'wine cellar' (where the body was), brings her up holding her at arm's length (rigor already setting in) and has the temerity to ask, "Is she dead?" Sets her down, and the mother falls over her, proceeding to contaminate the body… a clusterf*ck from start to finish, esp. by the po-po.
For true crime buffs. There is a documentary out in theaters now called West of Memphis about 3 teenagers convicted of killing 3 seven year old boys. Talked about botched police work and policitical dealings. After 18 years they finally left prison but as far as the state is concerned, they are guilty so no justice for the dead boys. Great documentary. Also Life After Death is a book about the so called ring leader which is a fascinating read about his account on death row.
Thanks for the info @Libby. This case always fascinated me.
I should have specified 'satanic' in there instead of just saying occult – that's actually what I'm referring to. I know there are some Wiccans who read this, and in no way was I referring to witchcraft.
I think that is what Slim Sargasso is talking about too.
@ Libby – Didn't they find biological evidence/DNA/semen or something on JonBenet that ruled out Burke? Or am I getting my wires crossed?
@cycliste – I've followed that case my whole life. The day those men were freed I just cried and cried. I follow Damion Echols on Twitter and it does my heart so good to see how wonderful his life is now. I can't fathom how the West Memphis police, or that judge & prosecuter can live with themselves
I recently purchased and read Foreign Faction by James Kolar, and to me — anything someone wants to know about the case is in that book. I feel the mystery is almost solved in that book — no doubt the killer was in her immediate family and others in the household covered it up.
Interesting posts guys, can't wait to read more into this this afternoon. I have a weird fascination with true crime stories myself.
Unsolved crimes drive me completely insane. Following them used to be a hobby, but I just can't take the not knowing.
@Jane Doe: First I've heard of this one! I'll have to look for it. Thanks.
The book that turned me on to true crime was the Isabel LeBourdais book "The Trial of Stephen Truscott", which was given to me (as a secondhand book) when I was a young teenager, and I have been fascinated ever since. I still wonder if we will ever know. (The Julian Sher book "Until You Are Dead" about the case is on its way to me as we speak.)
seaward & agent, I am not getting any work done today, again.
@gemtwist. I have been following it for about 8 years when I first read The Devil's Knot. I also remember the day they were freed. It makes me so angry how the state marks them as guilty for political reasons and the case is closed. However they walk free because they are innocent and the real killer is not brought to justice. So many injustices though. Nicole Simpson, Caylee Anthony, Jon Benet, WM3…
I read an article about those boys, Cycliste, and the write pointed out some evidence suggesting that much of the evidence pointed at the stepfather being the murderer. He stole 6 childhoods by letting those boys go to jail.
Slim, while I have never experienced anything myself, I have read survivors stories re: their families & strangers committing brutal sexual abuse on them in the name of occult worship. People just have to think about cults like the Children of God to remind themselves that truth is stranger & scarier than fiction. I also wish to reiterate my admiration for those survivors who have shared their experiences with us. I know I have stated it before, but I feel it always bears repeating. Bravo to all of you. For those who were reading yesterday, the rain has eased, so my ark building has been postponed.
Add me to true crime addict. I like watching Snapped. It makes my husband anxious though. He doesn't know how I can watch gruesome stuff like that. He asked me once if I was taking mental notes for offing him. Lol!
Dafuq is going on in this country.
I don't think Patsy murdered JB- I think John or John's friends did it- and I think Patsy loved John's money enough to scramble around and try to protect him and his money. It is so sad that children like Jon Benet and Caylee Anthony are treated like garbage and the more time passes, the less likely there will ever be anyone to pay for taking their lives.
I ant to know more about Jon Benet's sister Elizabeth that died in a car crash.
I didn't know that JonBenet was the only murder in Boulder in 1996. That strikes me as odd, the only one?
HI everyone, I keep missing all the good chat because of time difference
The JonBennett case has really stuck with me, I believe I was an early teen. Must check the date. It made headlines everywhere as you know. I know the media have said dna proves somebody else was there, however it doesn't rule out that the parents knew somebody else was there. Nothing about the parents sit right with me.
I'm a massive true crime too, thank god I'm not the only one mririshnurse gets a bit creeped by it although he does buy the books for me. I can claim I need to learn about psychopathy and sociopathy for my line of work (psychiatry- hoping to specialise in forensic psychiatry)
I want to know….
Agent I Googled her but could only find that she had been in a wreck with her boyfriend, their car hit a slick patch and spun out. Idk if I just such at research or there is zero info on her.
M covered this case on her blog. It is hard to read though because she keeps repeating things…but I agree with her assumption that the mother did it. I thought that from the get go, and the Ramsays' refusal to be questioned cemented it. Then there was that public statement they made…WTF was that all about?
I thought the rich and powerful only got away with murder in LA.
@agent, that link is freaking creepy. M was strange, but to have an entire page about her, the blog is very bizarre. Clearly there is more to her story. Thanks.
@agent**itElizabeth Ramsey died in 1992. I don't think her death was related to her sister's, but it is creepy. Here is a link to her grave site:http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=sh&GRid=3760