That is just terrible! My brother was a sniper in the Marines.
My jaw dropped when I saw this on the computer this morning.
Why would you take a soldier suffering from PTSD to a gun range??? That's just not smart..
My God. Prayers for his family
Whoa..that is awful. And he was trying to help. But, maybe firearms are too much of a reminder of the war.
So tragic! Condolences and prayers to the families of all of the men.
This is so very sad, but why the hell would you take someone suffering from PTSD from serving in a war to a freakin' gun range?!?! I'm just dumbfounded: I would think a gun range would be one of the last places you'd take them.
Agreed, gun range not the place for veteran with ptsd.very sad
Guns kill people. People fire them but it was the gun that killed him and his friend. Very sad.
I was so sure I would have gotten hammered for saying guns were bad in this case but it appears I'm not the only one. Maybe it's part of the therapy?
It's tragic but he who lives by the sword dies by the sword as the saying goes.
Yeah, terrible choice, and so sad. You don't take a PTSD sufferer back to a trigger situation (no pun intended.)
Stuff like that should only be considered by a psychotherapist (or whatever term, I'm not sure) as part of a long-term plan of therapy. And even then, and IF done, it should be a gradual process, and only when going back is necessary, like if a person was traumatized while buying groceries or going to school. Going to a gun range isn't necessary for any civilian, it's a hobby.
People kill people. Not guns. Guns are just the instrument, as are knives, bombs, IED's, etc. People make the decision, not the instruments.
As someone who has dealt with an ex with severe PTSD, any weapon was the last thing I would have let him be around. Mr. Kyle was doing a great service and one person destroyed that.
RIP, so sad we lost someone that served in such a tremendous way.
i echo @zola.
@Zola. No you are wrong. the gun killed him. Bang, he's dead. If there was no gun, these people would be alive. I don't get how some people can't get that simple concept.
I read somewhere that some with PTSD are taken to gun ranges in order to desensitize them to the noise of gunfire. Anyone else heard of this?
@Lulu G obviously you are against guns. It is not the gun it the person holding it. If it weren't a gun it could be a knife, hell he could have beaten him to death. The simple concept is, it's the deranged people with the weapons that are killing. But whatever, you can choose not to own a gun. I will gladly own one, so I can defend myself if needed.
Yes, people use other instruments to kill. But, with a gun, a person can be somewhat detached. I would imagine it's a lot easier (for some) to shoot a gun than it would be to stab someone or beat them to death! Blood is messy, y'all and it's a bitch to get those stains out! (And, yes, I know blood spatters from gunshot wounds, but not nearly as much as stabbing or beating.)
Bottom line for me: guns were made for killing. Knives are used for other things. Cars aren't made for the purpose of killing. Ingredients for bombs aren't necessarily made to kill but when combined, they kill. Guns kill. Period.
*Don't take mah sumbitchin' guns from me!!*
Yes, I'm rabidly anti-gun, but not naive enough to think we'll ever get rid of them. I'm very, very, very pro-gun control. JMO
yes, murder via stabbing is a bitch to clean up. rip.
His book was amazing & I'm sure he helped a lot of people. I'm waiting for the investigation to find out what happened but I'm not sure the milk is clean on this death. Best to his family & friends. Sad.
My brother has severe PTSD. He's checked himself into rehab 3 times in the last year for his rage and substance issues. His marriage is basically over. I have 2 nephews I know one day I will no contact with. My parents have to fly half way across the country all the time to mediate shit with him & his wife. I'm pretty scared one day he's going to absolutely lose it and kill everyone. The VA is pretty not-helpful. They just give him more drugs to deal with his 'issues', which he promptly abuses. He can't hold a job. I guess what I'm trying to say is PTSD can suck it and guns are horrible.
@GemTwist: I'm so very sorry. PTSD is horrible; I have it due to childhood sexual abuse. It's horrible to go through and horrible for those who love us. I wish peace, light and love for you and your family.
Jeez, one day you're beating up Jesse Ventura and the next you're getting shot by another vet.
Oh my, if only there would have been one of the good guys with a gun on that firing range, someone trained to use the gun to protect people, someone who carried a gun to protect people from bad guys with guns. But where are you going to find someone like that on a firing range in Texas?
@Olivia. You're brilliant. Thank you.
@LuluA gun cannot load bullets into a cartridge. A gun cannot load a cartridge into itself.A gun cannot aim itself at someone.A gun cannot pull it's own trigger.
A person is needed to do all the above actions. By itself, a gun cannot do anything except lay there. It's time people are responsible for their actions and stop blaming inanimate objects. Perhaps if people had access to mental health facilities we wouldn't be having the shootings we have today. And if it's not shootings, it would be stabbings. Look at China. The problems lie with people, not the object. What's so hard to understand about that?
People don't get it because when one person wants to kill another, they find a way to do it. These guys could've taken the soldier fishing and maybe he would've stabbed them with a hunting knife.
Call me a callous b*tch, but I don't care. I'm glad. I'm so over gun nuts (I know a few and they are fucking idiots). The saying goes, "Live by the gun, die by the gun" – taking out innocent bystanders while you're at it. I'm convinced I'll die of a gunshot wound from some fucktard carrying a gun, which would explain my complete disgust with guns and their idiotic owners.
I think we all understand that a gun cannot act by itself but the point people are trying to make is that it is easier to kill with a gun than with a knife.
And I really enjoyed the point above that guns were created to kill whereas other objects that can kill serve different purposes in life.
GemTwist if you want (just if you want) email me and I'll explain the shell shock therapy my G Grandad & Uncle had back in the day. No meds but they responded over time. Put your screen name in the topic line. email@example.com no idea if it would help but anyway, if you want.
Crystal – Your fishing analogy probably wouldn't fit, because (I'm guessing) this man's PTSD came from being in a combat situation and the gunfire brought back the trauma. If his PTSD came from something that happened on a fishing boat, the stabbing scenario would be conceivable. As it stands, sitting in a fishing boat wouldn't likely trigger his PTSD.
So this isn't specifically about guns, but being in a place that triggers this man's PTSD, and having access to weapons there.
That's really fucking dark. I hope you aren't as bad of a person as this makes you sound.
Maybe I am. Why would you take a soldier suffering from PTSD to a fucking gun range? And no, I'm not really happy when anyone leaves this realm before their time. I'm just sick and tired of the gun worshippers – and people who are made heroes because they have a body count.
God Bless him for his loyalty and service for his country! RIP CK you will never be a forgotten hero. May the good lord watch over his family.
So tragic for all their families. It sounds as if they were just trying to help their friend recover.
IKR, Olivia — Pity Kyle himself wasn't a responsible gun owner who knew how to defend himself… oh, wait…
I don't know if it is correct but I read that the range is pretty remote. Kind of isolated.
Ahh Gem I'm so sorry your family and brother are going thru this. PTSD Is horrid on the families of our soldiers. My cousin, his wife and my brother in law all suffer from what they witnessed in war. I agree the VA is just not doing enuf. Lets take some of this gun money and put it where it belongs–helping our troops get back to good.
Rip mr Kyle. You are an American hero sir.
Some of these comments are making me sick. Have some respect. Why aren't we talking about the fact these veterans aren't brought back and taken care of by our country? These veterans need counseling. The government just turns their back on them and everyone just thinks this is ok? No one knows the circumstances of the situation. This guy did a great service to our nation. I'm sending prayers to his family and friends.
This gun argument the nation is obsessed with is driving me mad. NO one is really for, or against guns. We are ALL against senseless killing. We just have varying views of how to stop it from occurring. But we're so obsessed on the tool (We need less of them! We need more of them!) that we are not bothering to find real solutions. I'm so saddened by the whole thing. Whichever way it turns out – we all lose, because we didn't address the real problem.
22 veterans a day in the US commit suicide. Perhaps the Govt should be spending more resources helping returned soldiers adjust to life again.
RIP Chris Kyle
Lulu G- you are dumber than the gum stuck to the bottom of my shoe.
it is none of my business why they were at a shooting range- maybe thats what they liked to do as a group?
I feel terrible someone turned a gun on a law abiding citizen and pulled the trigger.
We have created a generation of killers with our two wars, and then they come home all damaged (and often get sent back to war zones) and we do nothing. It makes me sick.
How horrible and sad for all involved.
Thats what immediaetly thought! But maybe they had done it before and it worked out well?kknd of poetic death if you think about it. And im noy by any means trying to be snarky. Rip
People with guns kill people. You have a gun. No problem. You have a person. No problem. Put them together- problem.
Zola–I disagree with Lulu and absolutely believe that in this particular case the man killed the man not the gun. But WHY do you use the China stabbing as a pro gun talking point? If anything, it's a fantastic anti gun talking point. How many people died in the Sandy Hook shooting from a gunman? 26. How many people died in the China stabbing. Oh yeah. ZERO. No one. Think about that.
Because a gun isn't the only way to kill someone?
I’m not pro-guns. I’m pro taking a logical look at things and blaming the correct problem. The correct problem is people. There is something seriously wrong with the world and the people in it and all everyone wants to do is point fingers at guns, violent video games, rap lyrics, etc.
And yes, there have been quite a few deaths from stabbings in China.
A Chinese man has stabbed to death eight people, including his mother, wife and daughter in the Jiangxi province of the country.http://news.sky.com/story/778981/eight-killed-in-china-stabbing-rampage
A TEENAGER has been arrested after killing nine people and wounding four others in a knife attack in northeast China.http://www.news.com.au/world/teen-stabs-nine-people-to-death/story-fndir2ev-1226441838914
China executes man who stabbed eight children to death in front of their parents in school bloodbathhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1269387/China-executes-Zhang-Minsheng-stabbed-8-schoolchildren-death.html#ixzz2JtPYZCK2
School attacks in Chinahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932011)
Just because in some cases, that there were not deaths, are the attacks are not important? Is it because guns weren’t used is it not important? The PEOPLE that perpetrated these attacks were mentally unstable. It doesn’t matter the instrument, they will act out no matter what instrument they can get their hands on.
People need to be taken care of, have access to mental health facilities, not be ridiculed for seeking help, and healed as best as possible. Our soldiers are reprimanded for seeking help for PTSD. It is a black mark on their record. The VA does little to help when they are out. They have to fight to prove PTSD. Until it is recognized that their is a mental health crisis, there will be more attacks, regardless of the instrument used.
Not a smart idea to take a soldier suffering from PTSD to a gun range, but who really knows the situation. Maybe it has been successful before, but if that guy hadn't been there and that gun had been just sitting on the shelf, would it have gone off and killed these two anyways? Hell no.
The gun wasn't alone in this, someone had to pull the trigger.
There will always be a gun debate but the reality of the situation is guns are not and never will go anywhere. For so many, many reasons. I dislike guns, they scare the ever living shit out of me. But I plan on having my CHL and my own handgun by the end of this year. Why? Because I am a 23 year old female who will be living on my own, in downtown Houston, and I'm not very big at all. I want to be able to protect myself if, god forbid, the situation should ever arise. I want to be able to protect those around me if need be. Do I plan on buying a gun, aiming and hoping I do alright? Hell no, I plan on taking hours and hours of training courses and continuing that education for as long as I own a firearm. With great power comes great responsibility.
I wish we took a more proactive approach to assimilating our veterans back into every day life. The sacrifices these men and women willingly make, the danger they put their lives into for our safety, and our government can't be bothered to help them in any way? I would rather pay for veterans to go to treatment and receive the care they need then pay for Octomom and Jenelle Evan's kids/drug supply.
Whew, not a good idea to hold my breath while typing that. Sorry if it sounds ranty.
Gem I hope your brother is able to heal and come back to his family, it is so sad that someone who did so much for us still has to suffer because of it. I hope you guys can get through this.
Popnursing well said!
I don't have a lot of sympathy for this situation. I'd like to say I have more compassion, but I just don't. Maybe it's because of all the gun nuts making ridiculous statements in the news that has given me compassion fatigue.
I think that this Chris Kyle person created the situation for his own demise, just like the mother of the Sandy Hook shooter created the situation for HER own demise.
I'm not sure what the value is for bringing mentally unstable, potentially violent people to gun ranges and letting them use guns. I'd say the method's been 0 for 2 at least, thus far.
I'm also getting a little sick of the "People kill people, they'd use something else to kill people, like baseball bats and knives" gun apologists. Well, god forbid we restrict guns a little more, and make it harder for the killers to kill easily. What would that solve?!
Except, oh I don't know- MAYBE SOME KILLINGS? God forbid that people who would normally get shot merely get stabbed or beat instead, perhaps not even fatally. We wouldn't want to generate a nation of homicide quitters, now would we!
Excuse my sarcasm for such a serious topic, but it's hard not to be sarcastic when being constantly confronted with such a ludicrous level of cognitive dissonance.
Alex, for the same reason we thought that putting smokers in their own section, then at the bar, then outside, then 20 feet from any entrance, then not in any public place, was a great idea. If we relinquish our right to have the same weapon that the government has, we've made ourselves vulnerable to further violation. Whether or not the government is currently a realistic threat is not the point. It's whether we have the power to fight it should it ever be one. Blah, blah, blah. I could go on, but what's the point? I know I'm not changing anyone's mind. But that's why "gun nuts" fight like hell when the government tries to make it about the gun instead of what it is, a woeful, shameful lack of resources to care for the mentally ill.
I wonder if the families of Daniel Pearl or Nicholas Berg or Gisa, the young Afghan girl who was killed a few months ago by her father for declining a marriage proposal, blamed the knives that killed them?
I'm sorry – but this is just so ironic it's funny. Gun advocates and the NRA have been banging on for weeks now about how much safer we'd all be if only EVERYONE had guns and we could all potentially shoot the bad guys. And this guy shoots and kills people at a GUN RANGE and still gets away from the scene.
AlexT said… Maybe it's because of all the gun nuts making ridiculous statements in the news that has given me compassion fatigue
What are these "ridiculous statements"? Why don't you point us to one?
Well, god forbid we restrict guns a little more, and make it harder for the killers to kill easily
There are more than 20,000 state & federal gun laws and 10,000 + pages of federal regulations related to firearms in America.Oh, and Connecticut has an Assault Weapons Ban, gun registration, gun background checks for purchases, and waiting periods.
So instead of making silly, vague assertions on the Internet, why don't you tell us exactly how we should "restrict guns a little more"?
Or perhaps you make silly, vague assertions on the Internet out of ignorance?
I apologize for my post up there. To say it was inappropriate is an understatement. This an unfortunate tragedy for all involved.
This Ladies and Gentlemen and the heartbreaking post above by Gemtwist prove that this is George Bush Jr's and the Neoconservative movements legacy. Remember the whole " we will be greeted as liberators! we'll have iraq wrapped up in 6 months tops!" Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, and many others were in with Bush Sr.'s cabinet, then Bush Jr. gets elected and puts all Daddies buddies in top military cabinet positions. Then starts a war with an oil rich country in the middle east, oh and afghanistan is not only awash in heroin, it's also filled with lithium. As in the stuff that's used in lithium batteries, like fuel cells in hybrid cars, also very valuable. Do you think the V.A cares about PTSD? They don't. Does the military care about it? You know the answer. All the Bush's and their war profiteering/halliburton cronies ever wanted was more money and power, and they threw your sons daughters, and family members down in the sand to use as paving stones to bring in their oil wells and military industrial complex, all the while transporting heroin to Europe and America to bring a whole generation of young people to their knees and unable to wake up and realise wtf's going on. PTSD ruins lives, families, leads to mass shootings, people murdering their families and that's just ok to the militay, it's fine, it's expected, and they couldn't care less. Because they don't give a damn about us. We are just pigs being fattened for slaughter, so many heads of cattle. That's just my two cents. Ok, nickel.
He was doing something noble, trying to help someone who was suffering. Those of us who have not gone through what these men (and women) have gone through need to be cautious in judging their decisions as to how to heal themselves and their comrades, in my opinion. I am grateful to them both for their service and my heart goes out to both their families.
Putting a gun in the hands of soneone with a mental illness is fatally stupid.