I just feel like I am having Christianity shoved into my face 24/7. As a non-Christian .. it is a bit alarming.
I am starting to wonder when I will see the pitchforks and torches coming towards me, after all, my beliefs on the religion matter are not American nor correct, it is constantly being shown to me. So I worry ... about the correcting .. of my incorrect beliefs.
I am an atheist and I am too scared to be honest about it due to the backlash that you get when admitting you are not religious. I know many people who say they are Christian, go to church, and send their kids to religious schools, but who obviously do it for the social acceptance as their behaviour is secular in every other way. Just wanted to let you know @Wil that you are not alone. Any fanaticism scares me. I respect the right for people to believe, but I feel there is no respect for my right not to.
Born and raised a Catholic. Opened my mind to reading all sorts of books about history, and archaeological finds. There is always the fact that I never liked a man telling me what to do. And a man in black with stinky breath, fanatic looking, telling me on Sundays what to do, how to vote, what to give, and talk about the sins of Eve, can just at the end, kiss my f-cking ass.
Am I an atheist? I don't know if I am. For me, just because I don't believe in organized religion, doesn't mean that I should make of others' believes.
As long as they keep it to themselves, and don't shove it up my nose. Prayer is just another form of meditation. You quite the mind, and then think positive. When you pray with fear, the worst happens. When you pray with joy, the best happens.
God or no God. Strongly impressing on someone else's believes is just another form of Terrorism.
Dear supposedly scared atheists, I don't believe you. You're not scared of Christians. Every atheist I've ever met can't wait to let me and everyone else know how much better s/he is than the "fundies" and other religious people. Fanatical proselytizers, atheists. Like those idiots who drive around with Darwin stickers on their car to let the world know they're not stupid, not like SOME people. Holier than thou? Check. Trolling for social acceptance via group identification? Double Check. The video in this post is belittling a Christian and Christians get mocked and marginalized constantly in the media for mildest expression of faith. I'm not even a churchgoer and I can see this. You guys are the ones with the pitchforks and the torches. You're just tweaked off that people don't take your little anti-God crusade seriously.
^ah, the state of absolute bliss that is ignorance. Amartel has conveniently forgotten the last millennium of tortures, mass murdering, witch hunting, child molesting, and other killings in the name of Christianity that puts her on such a pedestal of victimized holiness.
Hey wait -- I'm an atheist and don't mention it to anyone but my closest friends due to other people's reactions. I find the characterizations above to be way off base. I really thank that is the case for most folks. Those 'in your face' kind of nonbelievers are just as objectionable as those pushing religion down others' throats.
What the hell's a "Darwin sticker?" Where are all these car Darwin stickers being seen at? Now, Jesus fish I see in abundance. (On cars, buildings, key chains, etc.)
On my FB newsfeed, there are so many posts of "brave Christians" standing up to the evil scourge of the "Happy holiday-ers," it's ridiculous and more than a little hateful. I am ashamed of my ignorant, ranting friends. I guess it's easier to insult people on FB than it is to go out and actual perform a Christian act of generosity.
Amartel, I went out of my way to ensure my comments were not offensive to those who believe. Please go back and read other posts of mine. I have always tried to be respectful of others beliefs. I don't try and get religious programs removed from the airwaves, I don't knock on people's doors and try and get them to stop believing in God. I do, however, feel that I cannot be open about my atheism, which is why I posted.
This thread gave me a huge happy! I love you, fellow CDaNers! (Well, most of you. ;) )
American Christians claiming they are being persecuted are just like white people claiming they are being victimized by reverse racism. You are the privileged class. You are not being persecuted. You are bullies who don't like having your power threatened.
^agree I keep my agnostic beliefs to myself here in E. NC or I'd be hounded by church people till the end of time. It's ok for them to talk openly about their beliefs, but not me. :(
Yeah, and things like this makes me want to keep my mouth shut even more: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/12/study-of-the-day-religious-people-distrust-atheists-as-much-as-rapists/250005/
I am exhausted as I write this, so I hope it makes sense to everyone...lol I am a Christian - but I let my actions do the talking. I am not one to shove God down peoples throats and I have some dear friends who are non-believers. That beings said -- Tim Tebow is a good kid who walks the walk and talks the talk. I watched the kid grow up. He hasn't changed since he was a little guy. He has always had that enthusiasm and good for him! People think it is just an act - like so many other celebrities who thank God but have no clue what they are talking about - to appeal to the masses, but the Tebows are the real deal and people will realize this with time. With all the senseless, cruel, dirty hitting jerks in the NFL - James Harrison and Ndamokong Suh come to mind - it is nice to see a GOOD GUY for a change. Steve Young used to get the same crap for being a Mormon, but that finally died down. He is one of the most well-respected former players there is to this day. Will Tebow be a one season wonder - who knows - but he will be a success in life because he is a well-grounded individual - who just so happens to be a Christian.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
I'm with Amartel and Snowstorms on this. I, too, get a lot of the "LOL, you're a Christian, you must be stupid" BS from atheists. Including on this site. And the Tebows are the real deal. They do a LOT of good in the world -- I'm sure more than you or I do.
Also, feraltart, you brought up "fanaticism" when discussing Christians, as if they were one and the same. That was pretty offensive.
Texshan, I wrote any type of fanaticism. That can be atheists, sports enthusiasts, yoga practitioners etc. It also includes those of religious beliefs who are fanatical. I stand by that comment. There have been sweeping statements made about atheists and believers. I have tried to express my beliefs so people understand why I am not open about my atheism. If it is wrong to do skits about religion, then how is it right to brand non-believers as evil sinners who will burn for eternity in hell?
@Maja: Thanks for that link--awesome website! Two quotes: "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time comes, that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service." (John 16:2) Jesus saw that coming long before it happened. Killing in the name of Christianity has nothing to do with Christianity. "If you want to know if a man is religious, don't listen to what he says, watch what he does." (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
I have to admit, I get the sneer from my atheist friends, too. I respect them but it doesn't seem to be a two way street. But it doesn't matter. I don't let it bother me and I don't see why it should bother others in the reverse position if they are truly comfortable in their belief system.
THANK YOU Snowstorms! I love Steve Young and Tim Tebow for the exact reasons you stated.
@Amartel "Every atheist I've ever met can't wait to let me and everyone else know how much better s/he is than the "fundies" and other religious people. Fanatical proselytizers, atheists."
I doubt this. Just based on the responses here, I suspect you are surrounded by atheists but don't know it. In my experience most athiests don't feel the need to bring up their lack of belief unless being provoked or repeatedly proselytized to.
"The video in this post is belittling a Christian and Christians get mocked and marginalized constantly in the media for mildest expression of faith."
I would hardly call Tim Tebow a person who mildly expresses his faith. My grandma, who wears a cross but otherwise goes about her business as a normal person, is someone who mildly expresses her faith. If Tim Tebow wants to make a point of making a public display, he can't very well get upset by public ridicule. I think some Christians rather enjoy this imagined "persecution". I would prefer if people's reaction to Tebow was to simply laugh and shake their heads as they do when confronted with anyone who wants to act out in a socially abnormal manner.
Perhaps God has had enough of his grandstanding, and THAT explains his performance during this week's game?
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. - Matthew 6:6
Lisa, we had a big discussion on this board a few days ago in which I explained how that verse was wildly misused by ignorant people who have issues with Tebow praying in public. And praying is hardly "acting out in a socially abnormal manner" or "grandstanding." Finally, I would submit that you don't demonstrate any kind of outward Christian beliefs, which is why you personally never feel the smug wrath of the atheist when faced with a devout Christian. In my experience, ANY act of devotion done in the presence of an atheist is perceived by them as proslytizing and/or provoking, as if the world and everyone in it revolves around them.
Feraltart, I guess you see Tebow's public demonstration of his faith as fanaticism. I don't. If he were out there haranguing others about religion, insisting that they believe as he does, screaming about hellfire and brimstone, then yes, to me that would be fanatic. Taking a knee and praying quietly and thanking God for a safe game is not being fanatical. And I also made it clear a few days ago during our other Tebow discussion that Christians are told explicitly in the Bible to never say that someone is going to hell. That judgment is only God's to make. And I've never heard Tebow say anything remotely like that. If you have, please enlighten me.
@Texshan "I explained how that verse was wildly misused by ignorant people who have issues with Tebow praying in public"
You read the bible the way you want to, I'll read it the way I want to. That's the nice thing about the bible. Anyone can get anything from it that they feel like.
..."praying is hardly "acting out in a socially abnormal manner" or "grandstanding."
No, praying isn't, but he's not simply "praying", he is deliberately making a spectacle. If one of my co-workers stopped in the middle of the day in the middle of the office to drop to one knee, I'd look at him as odd.
This is not to say what he's doing is bad - he wants to kneel on the sidelines all day, whatever - but he truly can't be surprised that people give him the side-eye when he's doing something that 99.99% of people who pray do not do. His behavior IS out of the social norm, even in a country that is over 75% Christian.
"In my experience, ANY act of devotion done in the presence of an atheist is perceived by them as proslytizing and/or provoking, as if the world and everyone in it revolves around them."
Now this has me genuinely curious. Do you have random atheists coming up to you demanding you remove a Jesus fish from your car/ haranguing you as you visit church/ making you eat beef on Christmas Eve / pointing and laughing because you wear a cross / starting a fist fight when you wish them a Merry Christmas?
"Christians are told explicitly in the Bible to never say that someone is going to hell. That judgment is only God's to make. And I've never heard Tebow say anything remotely like that. If you have, please enlighten me."
"Tebow once told a group of prisoners: “If you have Jesus Christ in your heart, you are going to spend eternity in heaven. If you don’t, you’re going to spend eternity in hell.”
So then, I suppose not all Christians are explicitly told in the bible not to say someone is going to hell? Or is he ignorant too?
Texshan, I haven't commented on Tebow. My comments are general observations and personal reasons for keeping my beliefs private. I supported Wil in his atheism, not in mocking any particular person. Please go back and read my posts.
Lisa, so you picking out one Old Testament verse that you no doubt got from someone else and quoting it, without citing any of the context it was written in, is just as good of an argument as my explanation of the different types of prayer, using multiple sources in the New Testament? OK ...
For decades, athletes have thanked God for His help, prayed before, during, and after games, and pointed to the sky when hitting a home run, scoring a touchdown, etc. No one ever seemed to have any issue with it. But now all of a sudden, Tebow is "grandstanding" because he takes a knee and prays on the sideline? That doesn't make any sense.
No, I don't have random people coming up to me and harassing me, but I think that's because I live in a fairly religious part of the country and do not publicly show my faith very often, because to me it IS a very personal thing. By the way, I eat meat whenever I want. I think it's only Catholic Christians who have dietary restrictions.
Tebow was stating what to him and other evangelical Christians is fact. If you are not Christian, they believe you are going to go to hell. They are not judging anyone. This would be akin to saying that murderers go to prison, rather than saying that one specific murderer should go to prison. It's a fine point, but there is a difference.
Feraltart, perhaps I misconstrued what you wrote earlier. If I did, I apologize.
"Lisa, so you picking out one Old Testament verse that you no doubt got from someone else"
(and you know this how?)
"and quoting it, without citing any of the context it was written in"
(I didn't think anyone wanted to read all of Matthew 6, but if they do, they will find that context that 6:6 is within is one of exhorting Christians not to make a spectacle of themselves)
is just as good of an argument as my explanation of the different types of prayer, using multiple sources in the New Testament? OK ..."
Yes, actually. Your interpretation of scripture is no more valid than mine.
"For decades, athletes have thanked God for His help, prayed before, during, and after games, and pointed to the sky when hitting a home run, scoring a touchdown, etc. No one ever seemed to have any issue with it. But now all of a sudden, Tebow is "grandstanding" because he takes a knee and prays on the sideline?"
I think this explains well why some people find him off-putting:
"No, I don't have random people coming up to me and harassing me"
I see. So when you say that in your experience, "ANY act of devotion done in the presence of an atheist is perceived by them as proslytizing and/or provoking, as if the world and everyone in it revolves around them", you were basing your statement on what then?
"Tebow was stating what to him and other evangelical Christians is fact. If you are not Christian, they believe you are going to go to hell. They are not judging anyone. This would be akin to saying that murderers go to prison, rather than saying that one specific murderer should go to prison. It's a fine point, but there is a difference."
No, see, what you're doing is equating two different things. That murderers go to prison is a fact. That non-Christians go to hell is a belief. Saying non-Christians going to hell then would be analogous to saying that non-Muslims are unclean.
Besides, I posted that link because you said you weren't aware of Tebow saying someone is going to hell. Now you're aware.
Lisa, the "closet" verse is the one EVERYONE who has a problem with Tebow praying on the sidelines has been spouting off online, so yes, I find it much easier to believe that you just regurgitated that verse from somewhere else on the Internet rather than being a Biblical scholar (not that I am) fully aware of the context of the verse and what it was really refeerring to. If you were, you would know that it doesn't apply in Tebow's case and not refer to it. And I am not "interpreting" this particular passage. It is pretty obvious what is being discussed.
The blog post you cited was ridiculous. The writer states that the "case" for Christianity is "flimsy," so Christians owe it to people to "demonstrate humility" about their faith? Uh, no. That goes against everything being a Christian stands for. Only someone who isn't a Christian and doesn't understand Christianity would make such a stupid statement.
I was basing my statement on atheists on reactions I read on the Internet from people just like you, people so annoyed by a Christian praying in public that it blinds them to everything else about that person. Yesterday I was at my workplace's holiday party, and when I said something about how one of my cats broke the Jesus in my Nativity set, one of the assholes I work with said "maybe the cat knows something you don't." Nice, huh? I've been called names on this forum before for objecting when people classify all Christians as "rednecks" or "idiots." My experiences are fairly benign compared to things I've heard from other Christians, so I don't really consider myself as having dealt with it nearly as much as others.
Re: your contention that "one is a fact, the other is a belief," for Christians, as, I imagine, most others, their beliefs ARE their facts. Christians "believe" that non-Christians will go to hell. There is no question about it.
In closing, I hope you also are irritated by Jews who wear yarmulkes, Muslims who take the veil, and Sikhs who wear turbans. After all, they are doing these "out of the ordinary" things for religious purposes, and should, by your own argument, be considered making a "public display."
@Texshan Lisa, the "closet" verse is the one EVERYONE who has a problem with Tebow praying on the sidelines has been spouting off online, so yes, I find it much easier to believe that you just regurgitated that verse from somewhere else on the Internet rather than being a Biblical scholar (not that I am) fully aware of the context of the verse and what it was really refeerring to. If you were, you would know that it doesn't apply in Tebow's case and not refer to it. And I am not "interpreting" this particular passage. It is pretty obvious what is being discussed.
So EVERYONE is wrong, but YOU somehow have the exclusive rights to interpretations of bible verses that if read as plain quite clearly tell Christians not to pray just for the sake of doing it?
The blog post you cited was ridiculous. The writer states that the "case" for Christianity is "flimsy," so Christians owe it to people to "demonstrate humility" about their faith? Uh, no. That goes against everything being a Christian stands for. Only someone who isn't a Christian and doesn't understand Christianity would make such a stupid statement.
Can you please post your credentials as the arbiter of all thing Christian? You seem to have a real problem with any interpretation of anything that differs with your understanding of it.
I posted that link just to demonstrate why some people find Tim Tebow annoying. He's that person who won't shut the hell up about shit that other people don't care about, whether it be golf, their love for Carrot Top or how big their dick is. You don't get a pass on being annoying just because you're being annoying about something related to religion.
Yesterday I was at my workplace's holiday party, and when I said something about how one of my cats broke the Jesus in my Nativity set, one of the assholes I work with said "maybe the cat knows something you don't." Nice, huh?
Oh you poor thing! How ever do you go about your day in the face of such discrimination? Shame on your co-worker (who probably does not care about your cat or your ceramic Jesus) for prodding you into talking about your sinful cat and his Jesus-terrorizing paws, and then not showing proper deference!
I've been called names on this forum before for objecting when people classify all Christians as "rednecks" or "idiots.
Yet you think it's OK to characterize atheists as smug?
Re: your contention that "one is a fact, the other is a belief," for Christians, as, I imagine, most others, their beliefs ARE their facts. Christians "believe" that non-Christians will go to hell. There is no question about it.
Facts are things that can be demonstrated. If you are able to demonstrate to me that non-Christians go to hell, I will concede your point.
In closing, I hope you also are irritated by Jews who wear yarmulkes, Muslims who take the veil, and Sikhs who wear turbans. After all, they are doing these "out of the ordinary" things for religious purposes, and should, by your own argument, be considered making a "public display.
No, by my argument, someone whipping out a prayer carpet or blowing on a shofar in the middle of the office would be making a public display. Wearing a yarmulke or turban is no different than wearing a cross, and is totally within social norms.
Lisa, you are determined to twist everything I write in order to prove your own points, and I am sick of it. You don't know what you are talking about. I have explained several times WHY that verse is misused, but you refuse to understand it because it gives you some kind of satisfaction to think that you know more about the Bible than I do. No, not EVERYONE is wrong, just the people using this particular verse to justify being pissy about Tebow praying in public.
As for your second point, I made myself clear. If you can't understand it, that is your problem. Christians don't "owe" anyone "humility" about their faith. It doesn't take a religious scholar to know that, just someone who understands what Christianity is about.
Third point -- you invited me to name an instance in which an atheist was snotty to me about my religion. I gave you one. You then used it as an excuse to pile on the snottiness. The conversation at the time was about our pets tearing up presents, sleeping on tree skirts, and chewing on trees. My little 15 second story was relative to the conversation. The uncalled-for remark from my colleague was stupid and a small example of how non-Christians will often take any opportunity to biting and smug.
Frankly, I am done with you and this conversation. You are dead set on disliking Tim Tebow because he doesn't worship the way YOU think he should, and that is so egomaniacal it doesn't even deserve my time. No doubt you will post still more hyperbole about me and religion and Tebow, but I'm over it. Feel free to post away to your heart's content. I've got better things to do.
Lisa, you are determined to twist everything I write in order to prove your own points
Please demonstrate what statements I "twisted". I am just looking to get you to justify the bald assertions you're making.
I have explained several times WHY that verse is misused, but you refuse to understand it because it gives you some kind of satisfaction to think that you know more about the Bible than I do.
You yourself said you're not a Biblical scholar.
I understand what you're trying to say, I'm just telling you that your interpretation is wrong as I read it, and apparently as most people read it. Further, you have no basis upon which to disagree with my interpretation.
Christians don't "owe" anyone "humility" about their faith. It doesn't take a religious scholar to know that, just someone who understands what Christianity is about.
Again, who are you to speak for all of Christianity?
Third point -- you invited me to name an instance in which an atheist was snotty to me about my religion.
I asked you to support your assertion that "In my experience, ANY act of devotion done in the presence of an atheist is perceived by them as proslytizing and/or provoking, as if the world and everyone in it revolves around them." One throwaway comment by a co-worker does not confrontation by smug atheists make.
The conversation at the time was about our pets tearing up presents, sleeping on tree skirts, and chewing on trees. My little 15 second story was relative to the conversation. The uncalled-for remark from my colleague was stupid and a small example of how non-Christians will often take any opportunity to biting and smug.
You never said the person who was unimpressed by your cat story was an atheist. Maybe they were a Muslim, or a Jew, or a normal Christian who was just tired of your nattering on about baby Jesus and his broken manger?
You are dead set on disliking Tim Tebow because he doesn't worship the way YOU think he should, and that is so egomaniacal it doesn't even deserve my time.
Actually, I don't like him because I find him physically unappealing. I prefer my men to appear as if they have a fully developed frontal lobe. That aside, as I said before, there's nothing bad about the way he's praying, it's just weird and out of the norm and as such people will treat him as an oddity. You yourself said that "For decades, athletes have thanked God for His help, prayed before, during, and after games, and pointed to the sky when hitting a home run, scoring a touchdown, etc. No one ever seemed to have any issue with it." So you do see the difference in the way he's behaving. You're just being obstinate because you're determined to defend him just on the basis that he is a Christian man.
No doubt you will post still more hyperbole about me and religion and Tebow, but I'm over it.
Oh, OK, so now you are insinuating Tebow's stupid, to boot. One last point -- a quick search on the Internet would give you the information that he graduated with a degree in Family, Youth and Community Sciences (it basically prepares people for social work or counseling) with a GPA of nearly 3.7. He was a three-time ESPN The Magazine Academic All-American of the Year winner, won the Wuerffel Award (as the college football player who best exemplified community service with athletic and academic achievement), was the SEC's Scholar-Athlete of the Year in 2008, received the Lowes Senior Class Award, the Campbell Trophy (the "academic Heisman") in 2009 and was a National Scholar-Athlete. So while I am sure you would like to tell yourself Tebow's an idiot, he obviously isn't.
And I didn't "natter on." As I clearly stated, the story took 15 seconds to tell, max. But go ahead and tell yourself I'm a crazy cat lady if you wish. Your opinion of me means less than nothing.
I can't even laugh about this at this point.
ReplyDeleteI just feel like I am having Christianity shoved into my face 24/7. As a non-Christian .. it is a bit alarming.
I am starting to wonder when I will see the pitchforks and torches coming towards me, after all, my beliefs on the religion matter are not American nor correct, it is constantly being shown to me. So I worry ... about the correcting .. of my incorrect beliefs.
I am an atheist and I am too scared to be honest about it due to the backlash that you get when admitting you are not religious. I know many people who say they are Christian, go to church, and send their kids to religious schools, but who obviously do it for the social acceptance as their behaviour is secular in every other way. Just wanted to let you know @Wil that you are not alone. Any fanaticism scares me. I respect the right for people to believe, but I feel there is no respect for my right not to.
ReplyDelete^^ Completely agree :-)
ReplyDeleteBorn and raised a Catholic. Opened my mind to reading all sorts of books about history, and archaeological finds. There is always the fact that I never liked a man telling me what to do. And a man in black with stinky breath, fanatic looking, telling me on Sundays what to do, how to vote, what to give, and talk about the sins of Eve, can just at the end, kiss my f-cking ass.
ReplyDeleteAm I an atheist? I don't know if I am. For me, just because I don't believe in organized religion, doesn't mean that I should make of others' believes.
As long as they keep it to themselves, and don't shove it up my nose. Prayer is just another form of meditation. You quite the mind, and then think positive. When you pray with fear, the worst happens. When you pray with joy, the best happens.
God or no God. Strongly impressing on someone else's believes is just another form of Terrorism.
Dear supposedly scared atheists,
ReplyDeleteI don't believe you. You're not scared of Christians. Every atheist I've ever met can't wait to let me and everyone else know how much better s/he is than the "fundies" and other religious people. Fanatical proselytizers, atheists. Like those idiots who drive around with Darwin stickers on their car to let the world know they're not stupid, not like SOME people. Holier than thou? Check. Trolling for social acceptance via group identification? Double Check. The video in this post is belittling a Christian and Christians get mocked and marginalized constantly in the media for mildest expression of faith. I'm not even a churchgoer and I can see this. You guys are the ones with the pitchforks and the torches. You're just tweaked off that people don't take your little anti-God crusade seriously.
^ah, the state of absolute bliss that is ignorance. Amartel has conveniently forgotten the last millennium of tortures, mass murdering, witch hunting, child molesting, and other killings in the name of Christianity that puts her on such a pedestal of victimized holiness.
ReplyDeleteHey wait -- I'm an atheist and don't mention it to anyone but my closest friends due to other people's reactions. I find the characterizations above to be way off base. I really thank that is the case for most folks.
ReplyDeleteThose 'in your face' kind of nonbelievers are just as objectionable as those pushing religion down others' throats.
^^ "think" that is the case.
ReplyDeletewww.whitewhine.com
ReplyDeleteYou are not being persecuted for your beliefs (or non-beliefs). Trust me. You're not. None of you.
i'm with all the non-believers here. and i don't need to defend it to anyone either.
ReplyDeleteWhat the hell's a "Darwin sticker?" Where are all these car Darwin stickers being seen at? Now, Jesus fish I see in abundance. (On cars, buildings, key chains, etc.)
ReplyDeleteOn my FB newsfeed, there are so many posts of "brave Christians" standing up to the evil scourge of the "Happy holiday-ers," it's ridiculous and more than a little hateful. I am ashamed of my ignorant, ranting friends. I guess it's easier to insult people on FB than it is to go out and actual perform a Christian act of generosity.
Amartel, I went out of my way to ensure my comments were not offensive to those who believe. Please go back and read other posts of mine. I have always tried to be respectful of others beliefs. I don't try and get religious programs removed from the airwaves, I don't knock on people's doors and try and get them to stop believing in God. I do, however, feel that I cannot be open about my atheism, which is why I posted.
ReplyDeleteThis thread gave me a huge happy! I love you, fellow CDaNers! (Well, most of you. ;) )
ReplyDeleteAmerican Christians claiming they are being persecuted are just like white people claiming they are being victimized by reverse racism. You are the privileged class. You are not being persecuted. You are bullies who don't like having your power threatened.
^agree
ReplyDeleteI keep my agnostic beliefs to myself here in E. NC or I'd be hounded by church people till the end of time.
It's ok for them to talk openly about their beliefs, but not me.
:(
Yeah, and things like this makes me want to keep my mouth shut even more:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/12/study-of-the-day-religious-people-distrust-atheists-as-much-as-rapists/250005/
I am exhausted as I write this, so I hope it makes sense to everyone...lol I am a Christian - but I let my actions do the talking. I am not one to shove God down peoples throats and I have some dear friends who are non-believers. That beings said -- Tim Tebow is a good kid who walks the walk and talks the talk. I watched the kid grow up. He hasn't changed since he was a little guy. He has always had that enthusiasm and good for him! People think it is just an act - like so many other celebrities who thank God but have no clue what they are talking about - to appeal to the masses, but the Tebows are the real deal and people will realize this with time. With all the senseless, cruel, dirty hitting jerks in the NFL - James Harrison and Ndamokong Suh come to mind - it is nice to see a GOOD GUY for a change. Steve Young used to get the same crap for being a Mormon, but that finally died down. He is one of the most well-respected former players there is to this day. Will Tebow be a one season wonder - who knows - but he will be a success in life because he is a well-grounded individual - who just so happens to be a Christian.
ReplyDelete^Very beautifully said.
ReplyDeleteAmartel, as Stephen Roberts so eloquently put it:
ReplyDelete"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
I'm with Amartel and Snowstorms on this. I, too, get a lot of the "LOL, you're a Christian, you must be stupid" BS from atheists. Including on this site. And the Tebows are the real deal. They do a LOT of good in the world -- I'm sure more than you or I do.
ReplyDeleteAlso, feraltart, you brought up "fanaticism" when discussing Christians, as if they were one and the same. That was pretty offensive.
Texshan, I wrote any type of fanaticism. That can be atheists, sports enthusiasts, yoga practitioners etc. It also includes those of religious beliefs who are fanatical. I stand by that comment. There have been sweeping statements made about atheists and believers. I have tried to express my beliefs so people understand why I am not open about my atheism. If it is wrong to do skits about religion, then how is it right to brand non-believers as evil sinners who will burn for eternity in hell?
ReplyDelete@Maja: Thanks for that link--awesome website!
ReplyDeleteTwo quotes:
"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time comes, that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service." (John 16:2) Jesus saw that coming long before it happened. Killing in the name of Christianity has nothing to do with Christianity.
"If you want to know if a man is religious, don't listen to what he says, watch what he does." (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
I have to admit, I get the sneer from my atheist friends, too. I respect them but it doesn't seem to be a two way street. But it doesn't matter. I don't let it bother me and I don't see why it should bother others in the reverse position if they are truly comfortable in their belief system.
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU Snowstorms! I love Steve Young and Tim Tebow for the exact reasons you stated.
@Amartel
ReplyDelete"Every atheist I've ever met can't wait to let me and everyone else know how much better s/he is than the "fundies" and other religious people. Fanatical proselytizers, atheists."
I doubt this. Just based on the responses here, I suspect you are surrounded by atheists but don't know it. In my experience most athiests don't feel the need to bring up their lack of belief unless being provoked or repeatedly proselytized to.
"The video in this post is belittling a Christian and Christians get mocked and marginalized constantly in the media for mildest expression of faith."
I would hardly call Tim Tebow a person who mildly expresses his faith. My grandma, who wears a cross but otherwise goes about her business as a normal person, is someone who mildly expresses her faith. If Tim Tebow wants to make a point of making a public display, he can't very well get upset by public ridicule. I think some Christians rather enjoy this imagined "persecution". I would prefer if people's reaction to Tebow was to simply laugh and shake their heads as they do when confronted with anyone who wants to act out in a socially abnormal manner.
Perhaps God has had enough of his grandstanding, and THAT explains his performance during this week's game?
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
- Matthew 6:6
Lisa, we had a big discussion on this board a few days ago in which I explained how that verse was wildly misused by ignorant people who have issues with Tebow praying in public. And praying is hardly "acting out in a socially abnormal manner" or "grandstanding." Finally, I would submit that you don't demonstrate any kind of outward Christian beliefs, which is why you personally never feel the smug wrath of the atheist when faced with a devout Christian. In my experience, ANY act of devotion done in the presence of an atheist is perceived by them as proslytizing and/or provoking, as if the world and everyone in it revolves around them.
ReplyDeleteFeraltart, I guess you see Tebow's public demonstration of his faith as fanaticism. I don't. If he were out there haranguing others about religion, insisting that they believe as he does, screaming about hellfire and brimstone, then yes, to me that would be fanatic. Taking a knee and praying quietly and thanking God for a safe game is not being fanatical. And I also made it clear a few days ago during our other Tebow discussion that Christians are told explicitly in the Bible to never say that someone is going to hell. That judgment is only God's to make. And I've never heard Tebow say anything remotely like that. If you have, please enlighten me.
@Texshan
ReplyDelete"I explained how that verse was wildly misused by ignorant people who have issues with Tebow praying in public"
You read the bible the way you want to, I'll read it the way I want to. That's the nice thing about the bible. Anyone can get anything from it that they feel like.
..."praying is hardly "acting out in a socially abnormal manner" or "grandstanding."
No, praying isn't, but he's not simply "praying", he is deliberately making a spectacle. If one of my co-workers stopped in the middle of the day in the middle of the office to drop to one knee, I'd look at him as odd.
This is not to say what he's doing is bad - he wants to kneel on the sidelines all day, whatever - but he truly can't be surprised that people give him the side-eye when he's doing something that 99.99% of people who pray do not do. His behavior IS out of the social norm, even in a country that is over 75% Christian.
"In my experience, ANY act of devotion done in the presence of an atheist is perceived by them as proslytizing and/or provoking, as if the world and everyone in it revolves around them."
Now this has me genuinely curious. Do you have random atheists coming up to you demanding you remove a Jesus fish from your car/ haranguing you as you visit church/ making you eat beef on Christmas Eve / pointing and laughing because you wear a cross / starting a fist fight when you wish them a Merry Christmas?
"Christians are told explicitly in the Bible to never say that someone is going to hell. That judgment is only God's to make. And I've never heard Tebow say anything remotely like that. If you have, please enlighten me."
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/12/08/tim-tebow-and-faiths-place-in-football/
"Tebow once told a group of prisoners: “If you have Jesus Christ in your heart, you are going to spend eternity in heaven. If you don’t, you’re going to spend eternity in hell.”
So then, I suppose not all Christians are explicitly told in the bible not to say someone is going to hell? Or is he ignorant too?
Texshan, I haven't commented on Tebow. My comments are general observations and personal reasons for keeping my beliefs private. I supported Wil in his atheism, not in mocking any particular person. Please go back and read my posts.
ReplyDeleteLisa, so you picking out one Old Testament verse that you no doubt got from someone else and quoting it, without citing any of the context it was written in, is just as good of an argument as my explanation of the different types of prayer, using multiple sources in the New Testament? OK ...
ReplyDeleteFor decades, athletes have thanked God for His help, prayed before, during, and after games, and pointed to the sky when hitting a home run, scoring a touchdown, etc. No one ever seemed to have any issue with it. But now all of a sudden, Tebow is "grandstanding" because he takes a knee and prays on the sideline? That doesn't make any sense.
No, I don't have random people coming up to me and harassing me, but I think that's because I live in a fairly religious part of the country and do not publicly show my faith very often, because to me it IS a very personal thing. By the way, I eat meat whenever I want. I think it's only Catholic Christians who have dietary restrictions.
Tebow was stating what to him and other evangelical Christians is fact. If you are not Christian, they believe you are going to go to hell. They are not judging anyone. This would be akin to saying that murderers go to prison, rather than saying that one specific murderer should go to prison. It's a fine point, but there is a difference.
Feraltart, perhaps I misconstrued what you wrote earlier. If I did, I apologize.
@Texshan,
ReplyDelete"Lisa, so you picking out one Old Testament verse that you no doubt got from someone else"
(and you know this how?)
"and quoting it, without citing any of the context it was written in"
(I didn't think anyone wanted to read all of Matthew 6, but if they do, they will find that context that 6:6 is within is one of exhorting Christians not to make a spectacle of themselves)
is just as good of an argument as my explanation of the different types of prayer, using multiple sources in the New Testament? OK ..."
Yes, actually. Your interpretation of scripture is no more valid than mine.
"For decades, athletes have thanked God for His help, prayed before, during, and after games, and pointed to the sky when hitting a home run, scoring a touchdown, etc. No one ever seemed to have any issue with it. But now all of a sudden, Tebow is "grandstanding" because he takes a knee and prays on the sideline?"
I think this explains well why some people find him off-putting:
http://planetutah.typepad.com/planet_utah/2011/12/why-tim-tebow-annoys-me.html
"No, I don't have random people coming up to me and harassing me"
I see. So when you say that in your experience, "ANY act of devotion done in the presence of an atheist is perceived by them as proslytizing and/or provoking, as if the world and everyone in it revolves around them", you were basing your statement on what then?
"Tebow was stating what to him and other evangelical Christians is fact. If you are not Christian, they believe you are going to go to hell. They are not judging anyone. This would be akin to saying that murderers go to prison, rather than saying that one specific murderer should go to prison. It's a fine point, but there is a difference."
No, see, what you're doing is equating two different things. That murderers go to prison is a fact. That non-Christians go to hell is a belief. Saying non-Christians going to hell then would be analogous to saying that non-Muslims are unclean.
Besides, I posted that link because you said you weren't aware of Tebow saying someone is going to hell. Now you're aware.
Lisa, the "closet" verse is the one EVERYONE who has a problem with Tebow praying on the sidelines has been spouting off online, so yes, I find it much easier to believe that you just regurgitated that verse from somewhere else on the Internet rather than being a Biblical scholar (not that I am) fully aware of the context of the verse and what it was really refeerring to. If you were, you would know that it doesn't apply in Tebow's case and not refer to it. And I am not "interpreting" this particular passage. It is pretty obvious what is being discussed.
ReplyDeleteThe blog post you cited was ridiculous. The writer states that the "case" for Christianity is "flimsy," so Christians owe it to people to "demonstrate humility" about their faith? Uh, no. That goes against everything being a Christian stands for. Only someone who isn't a Christian and doesn't understand Christianity would make such a stupid statement.
I was basing my statement on atheists on reactions I read on the Internet from people just like you, people so annoyed by a Christian praying in public that it blinds them to everything else about that person. Yesterday I was at my workplace's holiday party, and when I said something about how one of my cats broke the Jesus in my Nativity set, one of the assholes I work with said "maybe the cat knows something you don't." Nice, huh? I've been called names on this forum before for objecting when people classify all Christians as "rednecks" or "idiots." My experiences are fairly benign compared to things I've heard from other Christians, so I don't really consider myself as having dealt with it nearly as much as others.
Re: your contention that "one is a fact, the other is a belief," for Christians, as, I imagine, most others, their beliefs ARE their facts. Christians "believe" that non-Christians will go to hell. There is no question about it.
In closing, I hope you also are irritated by Jews who wear yarmulkes, Muslims who take the veil, and Sikhs who wear turbans. After all, they are doing these "out of the ordinary" things for religious purposes, and should, by your own argument, be considered making a "public display."
@Texshan
ReplyDeleteLisa, the "closet" verse is the one EVERYONE who has a problem with Tebow praying on the sidelines has been spouting off online, so yes, I find it much easier to believe that you just regurgitated that verse from somewhere else on the Internet rather than being a Biblical scholar (not that I am) fully aware of the context of the verse and what it was really refeerring to. If you were, you would know that it doesn't apply in Tebow's case and not refer to it. And I am not "interpreting" this particular passage. It is pretty obvious what is being discussed.
So EVERYONE is wrong, but YOU somehow have the exclusive rights to interpretations of bible verses that if read as plain quite clearly tell Christians not to pray just for the sake of doing it?
The blog post you cited was ridiculous. The writer states that the "case" for Christianity is "flimsy," so Christians owe it to people to "demonstrate humility" about their faith? Uh, no. That goes against everything being a Christian stands for. Only someone who isn't a Christian and doesn't understand Christianity would make such a stupid statement.
Can you please post your credentials as the arbiter of all thing Christian? You seem to have a real problem with any interpretation of anything that differs with your understanding of it.
I posted that link just to demonstrate why some people find Tim Tebow annoying. He's that person who won't shut the hell up about shit that other people don't care about, whether it be golf, their love for Carrot Top or how big their dick is. You don't get a pass on being annoying just because you're being annoying about something related to religion.
Yesterday I was at my workplace's holiday party, and when I said something about how one of my cats broke the Jesus in my Nativity set, one of the assholes I work with said "maybe the cat knows something you don't." Nice, huh?
Oh you poor thing! How ever do you go about your day in the face of such discrimination? Shame on your co-worker (who probably does not care about your cat or your ceramic Jesus) for prodding you into talking about your sinful cat and his Jesus-terrorizing paws, and then not showing proper deference!
I've been called names on this forum before for objecting when people classify all Christians as "rednecks" or "idiots.
Yet you think it's OK to characterize atheists as smug?
Re: your contention that "one is a fact, the other is a belief," for Christians, as, I imagine, most others, their beliefs ARE their facts. Christians "believe" that non-Christians will go to hell. There is no question about it.
Facts are things that can be demonstrated. If you are able to demonstrate to me that non-Christians go to hell, I will concede your point.
In closing, I hope you also are irritated by Jews who wear yarmulkes, Muslims who take the veil, and Sikhs who wear turbans. After all, they are doing these "out of the ordinary" things for religious purposes, and should, by your own argument, be considered making a "public display.
No, by my argument, someone whipping out a prayer carpet or blowing on a shofar in the middle of the office would be making a public display. Wearing a yarmulke or turban is no different than wearing a cross, and is totally within social norms.
Lisa, you are determined to twist everything I write in order to prove your own points, and I am sick of it. You don't know what you are talking about. I have explained several times WHY that verse is misused, but you refuse to understand it because it gives you some kind of satisfaction to think that you know more about the Bible than I do. No, not EVERYONE is wrong, just the people using this particular verse to justify being pissy about Tebow praying in public.
ReplyDeleteAs for your second point, I made myself clear. If you can't understand it, that is your problem. Christians don't "owe" anyone "humility" about their faith. It doesn't take a religious scholar to know that, just someone who understands what Christianity is about.
Third point -- you invited me to name an instance in which an atheist was snotty to me about my religion. I gave you one. You then used it as an excuse to pile on the snottiness. The conversation at the time was about our pets tearing up presents, sleeping on tree skirts, and chewing on trees. My little 15 second story was relative to the conversation. The uncalled-for remark from my colleague was stupid and a small example of how non-Christians will often take any opportunity to biting and smug.
Frankly, I am done with you and this conversation. You are dead set on disliking Tim Tebow because he doesn't worship the way YOU think he should, and that is so egomaniacal it doesn't even deserve my time. No doubt you will post still more hyperbole about me and religion and Tebow, but I'm over it. Feel free to post away to your heart's content. I've got better things to do.
@Texshan
ReplyDeleteLisa, you are determined to twist everything I write in order to prove your own points
Please demonstrate what statements I "twisted". I am just looking to get you to justify the bald assertions you're making.
I have explained several times WHY that verse is misused, but you refuse to understand it because it gives you some kind of satisfaction to think that you know more about the Bible than I do.
You yourself said you're not a Biblical scholar.
I understand what you're trying to say, I'm just telling you that your interpretation is wrong as I read it, and apparently as most people read it. Further, you have no basis upon which to disagree with my interpretation.
Christians don't "owe" anyone "humility" about their faith. It doesn't take a religious scholar to know that, just someone who understands what Christianity is about.
Again, who are you to speak for all of Christianity?
Third point -- you invited me to name an instance in which an atheist was snotty to me about my religion.
I asked you to support your assertion that "In my experience, ANY act of devotion done in the presence of an atheist is perceived by them as proslytizing and/or provoking, as if the world and everyone in it revolves around them." One throwaway comment by a co-worker does not confrontation by smug atheists make.
The conversation at the time was about our pets tearing up presents, sleeping on tree skirts, and chewing on trees. My little 15 second story was relative to the conversation. The uncalled-for remark from my colleague was stupid and a small example of how non-Christians will often take any opportunity to biting and smug.
You never said the person who was unimpressed by your cat story was an atheist. Maybe they were a Muslim, or a Jew, or a normal Christian who was just tired of your nattering on about baby Jesus and his broken manger?
You are dead set on disliking Tim Tebow because he doesn't worship the way YOU think he should, and that is so egomaniacal it doesn't even deserve my time.
Actually, I don't like him because I find him physically unappealing. I prefer my men to appear as if they have a fully developed frontal lobe. That aside, as I said before, there's nothing bad about the way he's praying, it's just weird and out of the norm and as such people will treat him as an oddity. You yourself said that "For decades, athletes have thanked God for His help, prayed before, during, and after games, and pointed to the sky when hitting a home run, scoring a touchdown, etc. No one ever seemed to have any issue with it." So you do see the difference in the way he's behaving. You're just being obstinate because you're determined to defend him just on the basis that he is a Christian man.
No doubt you will post still more hyperbole about me and religion and Tebow, but I'm over it.
It's OK, take your ball and go home.
Oh, OK, so now you are insinuating Tebow's stupid, to boot. One last point -- a quick search on the Internet would give you the information that he graduated with a degree in Family, Youth and Community Sciences (it basically prepares people for social work or counseling) with a GPA of nearly 3.7. He was a three-time ESPN The Magazine Academic All-American of the Year winner, won the Wuerffel Award (as the college football player who best exemplified community service with athletic and academic achievement), was the SEC's Scholar-Athlete of the Year in 2008, received the Lowes Senior Class Award, the Campbell Trophy (the "academic Heisman") in 2009 and was a National Scholar-Athlete. So while I am sure you would like to tell yourself Tebow's an idiot, he obviously isn't.
ReplyDeleteAnd I didn't "natter on." As I clearly stated, the story took 15 seconds to tell, max. But go ahead and tell yourself I'm a crazy cat lady if you wish. Your opinion of me means less than nothing.
I never said Tim Tebow isn't intelligent. You have to admit, he looks like a caveman.
ReplyDeleteHe's no Braylon Edwards, that's for sure
ReplyDelete