There are twins in the photo ENT posted (the one in the Hollywood Theatre) I know he said that it was just a random pic. I have looked at it very carefully as I thought there were more than one set of twins in it and even did a search at the time.
The award has got to be an Oscar don't you think ?
I now think that this is Alice Brady for the first time. I think she was killed in the car crash and her father got her twin brother (haven't heard of one but who knows) to step in.
This doesn't explain though why Shimmy retraced his/her steps and started working in theatre as a woman.
2 of each thing? 2 of each kind of award(or nomination?) being given at the time, during Timmy's rise to stardom as a she, until BOOM Timmy wins the big one, maybe?
For example: 2 noms for XX award, 2 noms for ZZ award and then, THE BIG ONE
Thinking about it Shimmy could have already been appearing theatre building up a career as a woman when AB died and then decided to come to Hollywood as her. That makes sense.
They don't need to be twins. Just brother and sister.
Alice is the one who becomes a star first, onstage, and in silent movies. Her brother struggles in his career in Hollywood, because he's primarily a singer, and these are silent movies.
Alice goes back to New York to work in theater for awhile, as does the brother, and he gets his opportunity to "be" her at a performance.
Alice is killed. The brother takes over her stage role and her life identity.
Hollywood beckons back stage actors when the talkies come in.
No one knows what Alice's voice sounds like (in Hollywood).
The brother goes to Hollywood as Alice, has his screen tests, and has a new found career as a woman.
I'm back after taking a couple of days reprive from this whole Timmy thing. I definitely was getting burnt out, but the new clues have sucked me right back in!
I immediately thought 'twins' when I read the Noah's ark clue. It is really looking like this could be AB... I can easily buy in to the theory that her twin brother replaced her at some point, whether it just be for a role or two or until the end of "Alice Brady's" real life.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few days. Great sleuthing, everyone! I have learned sooooo much about old Hollywood.
I didn't think it was Alice Brady before, but I do now.
The "two of every kind" goes back to my theory about Kay Kendall, which now might be true of Alice.
Though I still think the timeline is off.
Even if Malice (the name I'll use for Male Alice) was younger than Alice, he still was 85 in the 80s when he died, a ripe old age for a gay young blade.
I still cannot believe it is Alice Brady. She was too well-known; her family was too well-known. People gossip; truth will out. Hardly anyone really gets away with anything in the long run.
Oh, that Ent. Tells us it wasn't a Golden Globe, but he won't confirm that it was an Oscar.
it also would have been easy for someone else to assume the persona of Alice..or a second Alice to be working under the same name..Actor's Equity wasn't officially recognized as a union until 1919:
"Equity's constitution was drafted by May 1913, and Actors' Equity Association was formally recognized on July 18, 1919 by the American Federation of Labor (later to become the AFL-CIO)."
Aice wouldn't join SAG in fact..sometime around her Oscar win Actor's Equity was insisting that all members join SAG or face sanctions and not be allowed to work.
I read something about they were going to take action against her, but when they found out about her "illness" they backed off.
Eventually he made his way back to San Francisco, [William Brady} where he managed to inveigle a job as callboy in a rouser called The White Slave. When one of the stars fell ill, Brady, following a tradition hoary even then, stepped forward and announced that he knew the lines. He got the part, and with it “a swelled head that wouldn’t have gone through a man-hole without shoving. ”
I've no light to shed, just a thought on David's comment...
In the original BI, EL strongly suggests that the stage performance - when Timmy went on as the female lead with the audience none the wiser - was in Los Angeles, not New York.
"When he first arrived in L.A., the studio system was still going strong... He worked often, but nothing more than a few lines here or there... to supplement his income, he began performing in local theater productions... as good as he was, it was only for one night, and he went back to his regular role the next night... after another year working at the studio... when his contract ended... he reversed the original trek from L.A."
I think that would rule out, at least, Timmy going back to NY to go on as the female lead for that first time.
According to IBDB, William Brady Jr. died in 1935, so that was probably around the time that Alice (or whoever was imitating her) was filming her award winning role. Or maybe it was even before that role was filmed. I'm sure the turnover time for films was much shorter back then.
Either way, I would say that seems to discount the brother stepping in for Alice theory.
I have two names that I don't think have been discussed much, if at all, for the female: Betty Hutton and maybe more of a mystery actress Charlotte Henry who had important roles in "Alice in Wonderland" and "Babes in Toyland." If you read Ms. Henry's bio, there are some interesting tidbits in it that could tie into the story.
The Betty Hutton guess is just from her picture on IMDB - it's the one where, to me anyway, she looks just like Tony Curtis in drag in "Some Like It Hot."
chenofan, yes, I remember someone posting more detailed info about the Brady family (including the leg thing - ick), but I can't find it. Would you happen to have the link? Thanks. :)
Have we discussed why there is a 10 year gap in Alice Brady's acting between '23 and '33???
Also, I just read that William Brady lost everything in the stock crash of '29. But, he was able to come up with financing to produce a Pulitzer Prize winning play in the same year netting him .5 mil!
Oh, I know that - seems like I've been obsessed with Oscars for much of my life. It's just that if it were either of those actresses, it seem like a fairly interesting reveal. Charlotte Henry even commented that after winning the part of Alice in Alice in Wonderland she felt she lost her identity and "lost interest" in making movies fairly soon after "Babes in Toyland."
farygica, I agree, Wm Brady Sr. sounds shifty to me. The second paragraph of that American Heritage page and all of the ventures he was involved in just screams to me that he was an opportunist. Even though I was somewhat skeptical in the beginning that he was in on the switch, I now think that he sounds exactly like the type who would manufacture such a scheme for monetary gain.
Yes chenofan. But is he managing her? Getting a % off of her? I'm agreeing and supposing with Dawn that Dad was working the system from both ends and his daughter was right in the middle. No wonder she was sick all of the time... maybe that's why they had to come up with another Alice, to cover when she was not able to work??
I've been firmly fixated on Alice, then wavered with his comment about someone being dropped too easily, now I'm back to Alice but it still bothers me that I can't see a scar. So that leaves me wondering if it could be an Emmy that Timmy won. On IMBD it says that an Emmy is the TV version of the Oscar.
Still looking for a scar and a role that is the subject of the blind. What is the subject of the blind?
ChenoFan said... "the only reference in his bio to anyone he managed was prizefighters, never a mention of managing any actors."
I'm thinking if it's all in the family maybe there is no mention. I don't know, just a thought.
Also, I have been staring at these photos here: (you have all been there a million times) http://silent-movies.com/Ladies/PBrady.html
There seemes to be a beautiful Alice and then kind of a "severe" Alice. The only thing I can really put my finger on is the distance between the top of her lips and the very base of here nose seems to be different between the 2. "Severe" Alice's is much longer. And then, there is just a look in her eyes. Regular Alice always has this longing, lovely look. "Severe" Alice does not have that. She looks colder.
I have never been on the AB band wagon until today. I'm convinced.
What about the "two of" being that Shimmy won two Academy Awards in the same year, or won awards for two different roles the same year? I know there are cases like that... can't recall which right now.
“#1 Noah's Ark. You know that whole two of each thing. “
I love how EL is so ambiguous.
This Timmy/ Shimmy thing is so much fun but so frustrating too.
SO there are so many different ways to analyze this but maybe the simplest way to translate this is exactly like what we have been saying: there are 2 ABs one a woman (AB 1) and one a man (AB2 aka Shimmy).
according to Hepburn's autobiography, as well as other biographies, he was cremated and is buried in the Hepburn family plot in Cedar Hill Cemetery in CT.
The "two of each" suggests to me not only two "Alice Brady"s but perhaps two "Timmy"s as well? Perhaps he took a different name when he went back to acting after winning the award? In which case, we should be looking for two actors--one whose career ends in the early 30s [When? Can we pinpoint a date on the pictures when the "Alice"s switch over?], and one whose career starts in the early '40s.
My Man Godfrey In Old Chicago Abe Lincoln in Illinois
I still don't see any evidence of a scar, not a big one. Alice does seem to have something odd about her lower lip.
Otherwise, it's Alice, the same person, in all three movies.
She's doing a comedy voice in the first one, and a melodramatic one in the second two. It's a low voice, but plenty of women have low voices. I can't see anything prominent like an Adam's apple, either.
One thing is true about Alice -- she's very short. She's shorter than Carole Lombard in Godfrey, and Carole was only 5'2".
long time lurker.... Ent said that shimmy was nominated for best actress and supporting, but only won one and it was for two different movies. he was the lead in the movie he met his man, and at the same time was filming the supporting role (which Ent said he did really well in because possibly was so happy 4 meeting his man, which makes me think he won the supporting role award).
anyhow, i had to go back and read the original BI post and Ent said something that i think i missed before. i only skim through the comments at work, so i dont know if this has been mentioned a lot, but Ent says that he went and rented the AWARD WINNING FILM to watch it. ok, so does that mean that THE FILM itself won an award too? people usually dont call a film award winning if only the actors won an award, but not the film itself. so, should we look for the film that won for best film and best supporting actress (or best actress)? that would cut it down to 4 people, AB being one...
what EL said was : "There he was, the woman who was really a gay man was being honored for being the Best Supporting Actress/Best Actress of the year. Its up to you to figure out which of the two he won."
it's not that Shimmy was nominated for both awards..but that we had to figure out which category Shimmy won for.
Wikipedia says that Alice Brady was born in 1892. Wouldn't that make it hard for her male alter ego to have died around 1980-1985? Even if he died in 1985, he would have been 88 years old and most people that I know that are that age die from old age rather than AIDS.
No kidding about Alice looking like two different people. Check out these two pictures I took from the silent movies site mentioned above... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/390520/alices.jpg
I decided to take a different angle and really focus on the verbal clues ENT gives us. He cryptically says "he was cast in another role which is the subject of the blind." I took this literally, and started thinking about the actual subject of the entry "The Life and Times of Timmy."
Then, ENT hinted about Noah's ark. So I started thinking about two's, things going hand in hand, the idea of "both."
Maybe, just maybe... our Shimmy was so exquisite in her award winning role that she was on the covers of both LIFE and Time magazine for the year of her Oscar win?
Perhaps I'm taking this too far and just getting excited over nothing, but I couldn't help it.
Here are links to cover searches for both magazines; it's very late and I still have real work to finish. Maybe someone else will have better luck?
LIFE: http://www.life.com/Life/cover_search/
Time: http://www.time.com/time/coversearch
P.S. I've lapsed in the comments, so I do apologize if this has already been explored
Just because Alice was born in 1892..it doesn't mean Timmy was..he could have been born 10 to 15 years later than Alice.
Yes, but that would have made Timmy 7 years old when Alice was 22 and acting in her first film.
Are we assuming that the male and female Timmy weren't the same person? Even then, I think it's too much of an age difference and the male Timmy would have been 73 when he died, which is still kind of old.
Also, didn't ENT say that this all happened in a 50 year time span and Timmy died between 1980-1985? The majority of Alice Brady's acting career was before that time period and that time period certainly wouldn't cover the times before she was female.
snowshyn said... "No kidding about Alice looking like two different people."
Zounds! Nice job snowshyn! See, I get the nose job thought but really, look at the difference of the jawline... and the chin is just flatter... and I am pretty sure they were not doing eye lifts back then but look at older Alice on the right, with the nose job and mighty different looking eyes then Alice on the left.
AND, look at the difference in the length of the neck! TOTALLY different.
I can't help being still hung up on his original description of Timmy as having "very pale features." I take this to mean blonde (which I do realize can be changed!) and blue-eyed... much less easy to change eye color back then than it is today, I should think.
and we are saying that the 2nd Alice Brady wasn't the same as the first Alice Brady..and that Timmy was the 2nd one.
From reading all the BI's, I was under the impression that the male Timmy and the female Timmy were one person. How did you guys figure out it's two people?
oh man, my blood is pumping, Marie Dressler was on the cover of Time! The LIFE online records don't go back that far. Argck!
Her Wikipedia entry leaves much to the imagination as to her early life, but she was a stage actress. Also, she passed away shortly after her Oscar win for Best Actress.
Also, it said that the female Timmy had to make up a story about where she came from. That would imply to me that it's one person we're talking about and not Alice Brady because she didn't have to make up a story about where she came from.
The awards listed for the year that Alice won best supporting AA for In Old Chicago are:
Academy Awards New York Drama Critics Circle Awards Photoplay Gold Medal Awards Drama League Awards New York Film Critics Awards Pulitzer Prize for Drama National Board of Review Awards
No other Alice Brady wins, here, although I think this list might be incomplete - a few of them only list awards for the movie, not for the actors/actresses, including Photoplay.
Every time I think I'm on to something, boom! A brick wall.
Re: the Brady side-by-side shots, first of all, I think she's absolutely gorgeous in the younger left hand one. Her face in that shot is etched in my memory. The older one on the right hand side, I've never seen that particular picture, but I've seen a picture of the same person, whether it be our Timmy, or just an older Alice. The thing I've noticed in this shot though is that it looks less like the picture of the younger Alice than the other older picture I'm thinking of. Does that even make sense? I think I'm burning out, here...
Also, I don't think it's improbable for a 73 year old man to have aids. Older people enjoy sex too, y'know. ;)
Finally, I took the 50 year time frame to indicate when Timmy came onto the scene as Shimmy, which works. 1980 minus 50 years = 1930, so working from that, that would give him a couple of years to get used to the 'role,' to perfect it, before Alice's second series of films began in 1933.
snowshyn said... No kidding about Alice looking like two different people. Check out these two pictures I took from the silent movies site mentioned above... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/390520/alices.jpg
I took the photo on the left (ribbon tied around head) and a 1933 photo by Geo Hurrell (http://www.hurrellphotos.com/default.asp?ID=4&action=largeimage&imgid=359) and superimposed them in Photoshop.
The Hurrell photo is taken from a slightly higher angle but I've got to say, the chin, 3/4 profile, and distance between the eyes all match.
Marie Dressler was also born in 1868...so that wouldn't have given Timmy much time to work up his Shimmy act or to have gotten a list of credits in films where he was mostly in the chorus of musicals..since sound only came to be in 1927.
This has probably been mentioned already but I’m kind of new to this – I thought the Oscars were only televised from 1953 onwards? The wording of “the award with all the television viewers” seems meaningful to me, but most guesses seem to be for people who have won Oscars prior to 1953.
"#4 Remember that Timmy was under a great deal of pressure even back then about his biography as a woman. People wanted to know where she was from, etc. Timmy provided information and it wasn't as easy to check on stories and timelines for reporters then, and so whatever an actress said about their past was generally just accepted and is reflected on the "official" biography for Timmy as an actress. The story Timmy gave is the one still in use."
So what I was trying to say is that IMO, the picture from that link and this: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/390520/alices.jpg
picture on the right look like they're the same person to me. But, the older picture in the first link looks more like a young Alice than does the older picture in the second link. Which doesn't add up, I know, but hey, I'm just rambling, here.
Yes, but if her brother took over for her then neither of them would have had to make up a biography besides changing the word "son" or daughter" to William A. Bradford.
Also, it says no one knew that it was really a gay man performing as a woman. William A. Bradford would have had to of known. And when and how do you think Alice Brady really died?
her dad...who owned World Studios and made her silent films..
NOPE..WILLIAM A. BRADY, Sr was her father
What? That's what every credible web site/source says. Her father was a broadway/silent film producer who owned World Studios, the movie studio that produced her silent films.
no one ever said Timmy went back to Broadway..just that he went back into the theatre.
"Timmy traveled and did the theatre route for almost two years while building up a resume and a background for his new persona. When he finally felt as if he had it down, Timmy returned to Hollywood. This time as a woman."
What? That's what every credible web site/source says. Her father was a broadway/silent film producer who owned World Studios, the movie studio that produced her silent films.
Alice Brady ( b. Nov 2, 1892 New York, NY, USA - d. Oct 28, 1939 New York, NY, USA ) Female Performer, Producer Also known as: Mary Rose Brady [Birthname] Relations: Daughter of William A. Brady Daughter of Alice Brady Step-daughter of Grace George Wife of James L. Crane (1919 - 1922) divorced; child, Donald
William A. Brady ( b. Jun 19, 1863 San Francisco, CA, USA - d. Jan 6, 1950 New York, NY, USA ) Male Producer, Theatre Owner/Operator, Director, House Manager, Performer Also known as: W.A. Brady Relations: Father of William A. Brady, Jr. Father of Alice Brady Father of Barbara Brady Husband of Alice Brady (? - c. 1896) her death; daughter Alice Husband of Grace George (1897 - 1950) his death; son Bill Brady Jr
William A. Brady, Jr. ( b. circa.1900 New York, NY, USA - d. Sep 26, 1935 Colt's Neck, NJ, USA ) Male Producer, Director
Grace George ( b. Dec 25, 1879 New York, NY, USA - d. May 19, 1961 New York, NY, USA ) Female Performer, Producer, Writer, Director Relations: Mother of William A. Brady, Jr. Step-mother of Alice Brady Step-mother of Barbara Brady Wife of William A. Brady
Here's something else I found odd. I found this on the Crazy Days and Nights message board, in the Timmy thread that was created there. I apologize if this has been mentioned already. I don't remember it being, but the thousands of posts over the past couple of weeks are blurring together for me, y'know?
Someone found and posted a picture of Alice's grave marker:
Scroll down, the marker is at the bottom of the page. You can click to enlarge it.
What I found strange about this is, her ex-husband's name is on the marker! Her marriage was brief, only 3 years, and it supposedly ended in divorce 17 years before her 'official' death, so why would she still be using his name?
I realize that this may have been done more commonly back then by traditional women, but she certainly doesn't strike me as traditional. She was independent with her own career, etc, famous in her own right.
Just tossing out possibilities here, but what if she had never divorced, and instead left her husband a widower? Then, her exploitative father who wanted to keep her career going for financial reasons found a replacement Alice?
I know it's far-fetched, but so is this entire thing. Go ahead, poke holes in this theory, tell me why it doesn't work, so I can move onto another angle. ;)
How are you guys explaining the fact that William A. Brady, Jr. never had a acting career in theater (he produced and staged, but didn't act) and the fact that he DIED in 1935?
Sorry, farygica, apparently there's no way to post images. Unless someone else can tell me: anyone know how I can upload an image from my computer so everyone can see?
not everyone thinks it was her brother..I certainly don't.
anyone could have used the name Alice Brady onstage on Broadway prior to 1919..or anywhere if they were doing regional theatre not covered by Equity..then made their way to Hollywood and cadged credits/made up a bio.
And Brady Jr's death was also suspect..it ws posted on another board from I think a Bogart book or some such that he died in an explosion/fire where only part of an arm and a leg remained.
I think the theory is good, but it doesn't work out that well with Shimmy/Timmy.
Timmy has to be in Hollywood, as a man, a singer, in the chorus. This means talkies, which means, no earlier than 1927.
If Alice died during her marriage, that would mean before 1919.
P.S. I've been trying to think of the other possible candidates that were dismissed too easily.
First of all, for Timmy, Kenny Baker. It's the right timeline, for he stopped doing anything by the early 50s, which might have been when he turned into Shimmy. But I can't for the life of me figure out Shimmy, from Kenny.
For Shimmy, there are a couple of possibilities we may have overlooked.
Janet Gaynor Dorothy Malone
And there are still some oddities about the foreigners on the list:
Katina Paxinou Anna Magnani Simone Signoret
Simone, in particular, really altered as she aged, from what appears to be a seductive beauty (in her youth) to a hard, puffy presence that definitely could be a man.
Alice Brady on IMDB does have a long career in silent film but there is a 10 year break between that and her short career in the 1930's, and I think Timmy either assumed the original Alice Brady's name and persona, or, far more likely, IMDB has simply fucked up like they do all the time, and the silent film work prior to 1923 could belong to the silent film actress Alice Brady and IMDB has placed both Alice Bradys bios under the same name.
Perhaps, it really was two people and they were both female Alice Brady's and IMDB made a mistake?
Even though it's a total shot in the dark, I want to throw out the split personality idea one more time, since it could fit in a weird sort of way with the latest clue, but seriously, U don't know who we could make it fit with.
Katharine Hepburn, maybe, but one would think that people would have really caught on to the fact that she had MPD.
Besides, I don't think any other websites have thrown out the MPD theory, so I really doubt it's that.
Simone Signoret worked for years and was still married to Yves Montand when she died. I liked Dorothy Malone for awhile, she just looks manly to me, but she was still working in 1992.
I can't go to sleep, I'm afraid I'll miss something exciting. Unless...do you think JJ being so old made it all up???
As for Timmy dying of ARC in the 80's, there were plenty of people that contracted AIDS via blood transfusions- even old men who were past their sexual primes. Timmy could easily been in his 80's or older.
I am going to need deprogramming after this is done...
Gaynor was in a car accident with Mary Martin in San Francisco in 1982..and died 2 years after that. Malone worked in film and television until 1992.
Katina Paxinou won her Oscar for her first Hollywwod credit. Anna Magnani-continued to work in film and television until 1972 Simone Signoret also continued working in film and television here and abroad until 1985.
Lisa, I've never thought that Timmy was Alice's brother. I expect to find out that he's some unknown actor with a bunch of uncredited parts.
gillian, could you upload the picture onto some photo-sharing site, and post the link?
David, she and Crane were married from 1919 to 1922, which still doesn't really work for the timeline, they divorced 5 years before talkies, unless the date of divorce was fudged, somehow? And, your new guesses, do they fit the criteria of an award win (most likely an AA) and then a career that ended soon after?
oooooo after a loaded hint like "noah's ark" where everybody's thinking two alice bradys, this would be the PERFECT time to NOT alice brady us tomorrow =) I think we would all go crazy!
katina Paxinou is super-famous in Greece; I was born in the same town as she. He life and career are well-documented and she continued to act on the stage in Athens pretty much almost until she died. She was very prolific, only not in the USA.
Honestly, I don't care at this point if it is real or made up... (but it better be real!)
This has been a huge and wonderful adventure. Oddly, just when I was beginning to think Old Hollywood was really "rat-packy", incestual and all f#$ked up, I was reminded about todays Hollywood. Ugh. From now on, I'll be happy to take a walk to Old Hollywood any time EL asks me to. :-)
Unrelated, but from the link that Helena just posted:
Divorcing. Dorothy Gish, stage and screen actress: James Rennie, actor (Murder at the Vanities) ; in Bridgeport, Conn. She testified that he came home intoxicated on weekends, woke her up, babbled incoherently for hours, caused her to lose sleep and have fits of hysterical laughter, once induced an attack of hiccoughs that lasted six days.
LOL! People back then were freaks! I'm going to be bored with current celebrity gossip, now.
revenge perhaps..but what did it really get him? esp since Alice died shortly after the Oscar win. It's not like he made millions from Alice's movie career.
...but AB's first 5 movies in the 1930s were for MGM. maybe it would burn him up to know he gave Timmy that FIRST studio contract which launched a career?
So, Katina Paxinou is out??? Long follow-up career in Greece....I'm looking at a photo of her in "The Academy Awards: A Pictorial History" and I was just going to ask about her; I thought there might be some potential there.
But I see she and her husband formed The Royal Theater of Athens, so she's definitely out.
"...but AB's first 5 movies in the 1930s were for MGM. maybe it would burn him up to know he gave Timmy that FIRST studio contract which launched a career?"
I think if Lowe would have had any say and held a grudge..he wouldn't have ok'd a contract for Alice anyway.
Katina Paxinou...I mean, in Greece, she one of those famous people that people would take pics with and then show off the pics to their friends and tell the story of meeting her. Greeks are big on national pride. In Pireaus she's kinda like the 1972 Miami Dolphins, you know?
Everyone keeps mentioning that Alice Brady's brother died in 1935. Is everyone sure that it wasn't actually Alice who died and that for whatever reason someone took over her career. The timing of the death would be about right and there was no identifiable body.
Maybe his original plan didn’t work out because of the skin disease thing and all he got was to go pick up AB’s Oscar- or maybe that was just enough for Wm Brady at that point.- maybe just maybe when Alice won the AA for FOX, Wm Brady decided revenge on MGM could not happen,
I don’t know for sure- none of us do but I can see how losing his company- his baby could have motivated Wm Brady.
People plot schemes all the time for a lot less then losing a company (William Brady built).
I think the key word there may be "supposedly". Who would know for sure? There had to be reason the switch was made. And Enty did say the WHY may be the most interesting part of the story.
I'm not saying the brother took her place. Maybe her father was the producer of the show where Timmy went on for the star. He knew that he would be able to take on the role of being Alice. Maybe he sent William Jr to Europe to live.
Late and nutty are me... but, what if it was Alice who died in that fire... at the hand of the younger brother. Dad is strapped for cash and needs Alice to continue to perform... and a new Alice is born from the gay son, who Dad says he will turn in and/or "out" if he refuses. (William Brady got his start from filling in for someone else. He knows it can work.) We now have our 3. Timmy, the real Timmy. Timmy, who falls in love with an A-List closeted man allowing Timmy to coax out the performance of a lifetime AS the 3rd Timmy (who we call Shimmy) who walks off with a couple of major film awards of the time. Timmy was a man, playing a famous woman, playing a landmark female role.
"The 2 Alices, superimposed and separated, are posted here"
I think it's easy to see they are both the same person..the nose on older Alice may be a bit more aquiline, but the facial structure and look is the same.
the Hurrell is from 1933..I don't see a date on the other..but sine it's a pic from a page of silent film stars..I'd guess sometime between 1914 and 1923?
Thanks! That is impressive. It does put it in perspective. I still think there is something off in other photos I am looking at but they are so old and shot from so may different angles it is hard to tell.
"ChenoFan: yes, I keep forgetting to say that... she must have had a nose job."
Or she simply could have 'grown into' her looks...the nose isn't really THAT different..and if you consider the time the photo was taken.and the advances made in 'artful' photography from the 'Teens to the 1930s..
We also have to keep in mind that "Timmy" goes back to being Timmy until the early 1980's...so if Alice Brady really died in the fire, but was id'd as her brother, after the "death" of Alice in 1939, who does the faux Alice go back to being?
Does that make any sense at 3AM on the east coast???
If William Brady, Jr. no longer exists b/c he is attributed as having died in the fire, but he took over as Alice b/c Alice really died...then faux Alice has a death date of 1939...who does William Brady, Jr. become as Timmy til 1980-1985? He doesn't have his own identity to go back to. Right?
1. A photo with another photo superimposed over top of it is way more disturbing then either of the photos on their own (but I agree gillian, looks like the same person, except the nose in the later one is thinner and more sculpted - rhinoplasty).
2. I should not be surfing celebrity grave sites at nearly 3 am, but since I chose to do just that, I deserve to be creeped the hell out.
Can someone refresh my memory? Was it Brady or Kay Kendall who had been in a car accident, and attributed their obviously different nose to having it repaired from injuries suffered in the car accident? Like I said, it's all beginning to blur together.
The AB Hurrell photo is from 1933, but the older picture on the grave page looks even older, and even less like young Alice. I wonder when that was taken:
Dawn said... 2. I should not be surfing celebrity grave sites at nearly 3 am, but since I chose to do just that, I deserve to be creeped the hell out.
The AB Hurrell photo is from 1933, but the older picture on the grave page looks even older, and even less like young Alice. I wonder when that was taken
I was totally creeped out reading the Time mag obit for Wm Brady Jr posted above... a bit too explicit for this time of night.
Hadn't seen the Find-a-grave photo before... good frontal view.... but to me, the eyes are the same.
Goodnight all... looking forward to tomorrows "nots".
Pretty sure EL won't "not" AB, whether it is her or not. AB is like "Door #2" on "Let's Make a Deal"!. EL will open door #1 or door #3, and even make a bunch of wagers and trades along the way, but EL will leave #2 until the very end... grrrrr.
Wm Brady, Jr. was a producer and director- so he could step in for AB BUT I still don't think he did take over for AB. I think EL's post mis-directed us and in reality the post just meant it there were 2 ABs.
I think the AB conspiracy theory is favored here for the beauty of its drama possibilities, but it´s really far stretched. To see a huge family conspiracy, when just 10 people knew? And two of them were not family. There is too much risk and no gain of putting this up. Who should be the winner? AB? The fathers Studio?
I really believe that if Timmy was hired, he would have spoken out long ago.
Also, i dont believe that if a man/woman today is going to be on a sabbatical, the family would hire a (closeted) lesbian/man, respectively, to take their place at family appointments. or at the workplace. That would be a hell of a stunt. Not only changing the gender, but also adopting the others person character and habits.
My Noah´s ark interpretation is that like in the saying just a few made it throug the groundshaking changes. Still movies were dead, talkies upcoming. Musicals were out, just a few were "still running" good at the time. Studio system was still strong, but the first breaks would be visible. It is no secret that a dying part (stills) will not just give up without fighting.
So Timmy /Shimmy was always on the Ark. Going to movies when musicals were dying, a very few actors made the successfull transition through both eras - still and talk. Somehow, beeing used to body talk in stills, this would help a lot if later the actor would also talk, because he could accentuate his play to conceal the "speaking" give aways.
It took Timmy two years to perfect his role and CV for that. A i said before, it is highly unlikely that Timmy changed the gender of his stage persona, but also adoptes the character and habits of another person.
Timmy/Shimmy was an actor with the will to play and entertain his audience - this is why he went back to theatre after Shimmy. This was his nature. He had enough to hide in his closets just with his shimmiying. the least he would want to worry about would be to still look and act like alice brady.
He went out to play for the masses. And this i think could also be the duality reference of the second part of ents hint. If i would interpret that, then both shimmy and timmy were a pair of one particular breed: the absolute entertainer who goes the last mile for his audience.
Anyway, if this turns out to be true, Timmy should receive a potstume Oscar for his "lifetime" achievment.
@guapista:
Dressler was on the Time cover. in 33, a little after winning an oscar. Wich is normal. This is another reason why i favor Dressler. Because with this Time Mag "approval" nobody would continue to inquire and ask more questions about the bio. so it is still in use.
she has quite a cleft or something directly under her bottom lip. I've never noticed that in any other picture. Someone earlier tonight mentioned her having something strange about her bottom lip, too, after watching three of her movies from the talkie era.
Thanks chenofan! That last still shows the line I thought might be a scar when I watched the movie--it's very faint, on her forehead. Though now I think there might be a faint scar on her left eyebrow? (Her right, I mean--on the left side of the picture. Though, come to think of it, the negatives could have been flipped in any of these photos.)
if you look at her forehead in that pic..there's also an odd sort of mark apparent that could be a scar
You're right, there is. This is the first time I've seen it myself, but I believe that others have referred to this as well, saying it could be a scar, or else a deep line or wrinkle. The problem with it being a deep wrinkle is, the rest of her face looks relatively unlined, so it's a little strange to develop one deep line on an otherwise relatively youthful face. Good call!
I realize that I am grasping here.. but could the Noah's ark clue have anything to do with water,rain,floods,etc? Any movies involved here have anything to do with water?
Another random thought-why would EL post that someone had been discounted too easily if it was AB--it is apparent that she is the leading candidate. Was it just to throw us off? Has he been giving clues to throw us off--it seems to me that the clues have been to help,rather that throw us off. I think that clue was given before he he ruled out KK,but I took that clue to mean it wasn't either one of them. Anybody else have the same thoughts?
Wasn't Timmy described as having very fair features? AB has very dark eyes. I'm not sold - despite the line which could be a scar on her right remple, close to and parallel to her hairline.
Also, i REALLY wish more people would start posing to the Message Board thingy. It would be a lot easier, since we have pages. And can start different threads, about specific topics, instead of everyone posting all willy-nilly here. (Sorry, i just jumped at the chance to use "willy-nilly". Its one of my favorite phrases, that I don't get to use very much)
Thanks ENT we were going stir crazy.
ReplyDeleteTwo of each thing - does that mean it's Marisa and Pier?
ReplyDeletewooohooo! and I was just closing up for the night!
ReplyDeleteMan I hope my sidekick doesn't give me shit trying to view this blog on Wednesday! lol
ReplyDeleteThanks for the clues.
Noah's ark ? That might be twins ?
ReplyDeleteThere are twins in the photo ENT posted (the one in the Hollywood Theatre) I know he said that it was just a random pic. I have looked at it very carefully as I thought there were more than one set of twins in it and even did a search at the time.
The award has got to be an Oscar don't you think ?
Excitement again !!
I need to go to Timmy rehab.
ReplyDelete...marisa won a GG and that was just NOTted
ReplyDeleteana said...
ReplyDelete"Two of each thing - does that mean it's Marisa and Pier?"
well they won no awards..I'd guess no.
Plus Noah's ark alludes to one of each gender.
Twins, eh? The Pierangeli twins?
ReplyDeletePerhaps brother and sister?
Pier is the brother, Marisa the sister?
Or perhaps, they weren't twins at all, but one single person.
I'm having some trouble with the whole Italian thing, though.
nope the only award either of them won was a GG and that's a notter.
ReplyDeleteI now think that this is Alice Brady for the first time. I think she was killed in the car crash and her father got her twin brother (haven't heard of one but who knows) to step in.
ReplyDeleteThis doesn't explain though why Shimmy retraced his/her steps and started working in theatre as a woman.
Confused - you will be.
could it be there really WERE 2 AB's?
ReplyDeletethe one that "went back to the stage" after the silent films WAS really Timmy?
I guess it's Alice Brady.
ReplyDeleteTwo Alice Bradys.
Maybe they were twins, one of them a man.
Maybe Alice was in a show, and got sick, so her brother took her place and the audience didn't know the difference.
Alice died, and the brother went back to Hollywood as Alice.
I guess that's it.
2 of each thing? 2 of each kind of award(or nomination?) being given at the time, during Timmy's rise to stardom as a she, until BOOM Timmy wins the big one, maybe?
ReplyDeleteFor example: 2 noms for XX award, 2 noms for ZZ award and then, THE BIG ONE
Thinking about it Shimmy could have already been appearing theatre building up a career as a woman when AB died and then decided to come to Hollywood as her. That makes sense.
ReplyDeleteThey don't need to be twins. Just brother and sister.
ReplyDeleteAlice is the one who becomes a star first, onstage, and in silent movies. Her brother struggles in his career in Hollywood, because he's primarily a singer, and these are silent movies.
Alice goes back to New York to work in theater for awhile, as does the brother, and he gets his opportunity to "be" her at a performance.
Alice is killed. The brother takes over her stage role and her life identity.
Hollywood beckons back stage actors when the talkies come in.
No one knows what Alice's voice sounds like (in Hollywood).
The brother goes to Hollywood as Alice, has his screen tests, and has a new found career as a woman.
I'm back after taking a couple of days reprive from this whole Timmy thing. I definitely was getting burnt out, but the new clues have sucked me right back in!
ReplyDeleteI immediately thought 'twins' when I read the Noah's ark clue. It is really looking like this could be AB... I can easily buy in to the theory that her twin brother replaced her at some point, whether it just be for a role or two or until the end of "Alice Brady's" real life.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few days. Great sleuthing, everyone! I have learned sooooo much about old Hollywood.
Would EL really narrow it down to "the Shimmy is" a couple days before the big reveal?
ReplyDeleteI still think it is AB but we must be missing another possible Shimmy.
I didn't think it was Alice Brady before, but I do now.
ReplyDeleteThe "two of every kind" goes back to my theory about Kay Kendall, which now might be true of Alice.
Though I still think the timeline is off.
Even if Malice (the name I'll use for Male Alice) was younger than Alice, he still was 85 in the 80s when he died, a ripe old age for a gay young blade.
I don't necessarily think it was AB's brother...besides the only brother we know about was her half-brother.
ReplyDeleteAh, my beautiful theory. Dead, George is dead.
ReplyDeleteI still cannot believe it is Alice Brady. She was too well-known; her family was too well-known. People gossip; truth will out. Hardly anyone really gets away with anything in the long run.
Oh, that Ent. Tells us it wasn't a Golden Globe, but he won't confirm that it was an Oscar.
it also would have been easy for someone else to assume the persona of Alice..or a second Alice to be working under the same name..Actor's Equity wasn't officially recognized as a union until 1919:
ReplyDelete"Equity's constitution was drafted by May 1913, and Actors' Equity Association was formally recognized on July 18, 1919 by the American Federation of Labor (later to become the AFL-CIO)."
sugaree said:
ReplyDelete"Oh, that Ent. Tells us it wasn't a Golden Globe, but he won't confirm that it was an Oscar."
well..there aren't any other very big awards for film really..process of elimination.
Didn't someone mention AB would not join SAG- well I guess having a double is a great reason not too.
ReplyDeleteHey brendalove - do you think we could get a discount rate for so many of us entering Timmy rehab??? LOL :)
ReplyDeleteSo it has to be an Oscar doesn't it?? I'm still not convinced that it is AB but it is starting to look like the most possible theory.
Aice wouldn't join SAG in fact..sometime around her Oscar win Actor's Equity was insisting that all members join SAG or face sanctions and not be allowed to work.
ReplyDeleteI read something about they were going to take action against her, but when they found out about her "illness" they backed off.
Um, what if the whole "two of each kind" didnt mean bro/sis but...one of each genitals? Hermaphrodite???
ReplyDeleteMaybe Alice and Malice were both Alice Brady. Alice herself was sick, and often her brother would take her place on set.
ReplyDeleteAlice really did die of cancer, so the brother happily ended the charade and went back to the theater.
Thanks for the hints but I'm stumped. I need to enter Timmy therapy with the others!
ReplyDeleteWe know the award wasn't:
Golden Globe
BAFTA
It must be an AA.
From William Brady's bio:
ReplyDeleteEventually he made his way back to San Francisco, [William Brady} where he managed to inveigle a job as callboy in a rouser called The White Slave. When one of the stars fell ill, Brady, following a tradition hoary even then, stepped forward and announced that he knew the lines. He got the part, and with it “a swelled head that wouldn’t have gone through a man-hole without shoving. ”
Wow. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
On IMDB. Alice has 3 movies where she plays twins!
ReplyDelete3 silent movies.
And a fourth one where she plays a mother and daughter.
Um, what?
I've no light to shed, just a thought on David's comment...
ReplyDeleteIn the original BI, EL strongly suggests that the stage performance - when Timmy went on as the female lead with the audience none the wiser - was in Los Angeles, not New York.
"When he first arrived in L.A., the studio system was still going strong... He worked often, but nothing more than a few lines here or there... to supplement his income, he began performing in local theater productions... as good as he was, it was only for one night, and he went back to his regular role the next night... after another year working at the studio... when his contract ended... he reversed the original trek from L.A."
I think that would rule out, at least, Timmy going back to NY to go on as the female lead for that first time.
Oh yeah, the link to the above is:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1980/3/1980_3_74.shtml
According to IBDB, William Brady Jr. died in 1935, so that was probably around the time that Alice (or whoever was imitating her) was filming her award winning role. Or maybe it was even before that role was filmed. I'm sure the turnover time for films was much shorter back then.
ReplyDeleteEither way, I would say that seems to discount the brother stepping in for Alice theory.
true but WB Jr died in some sort of fire/explosion where supposedly only part of a leg and arm was found..so who knows...
ReplyDeleteI have two names that I don't think have been discussed much, if at all, for the female: Betty Hutton and maybe more of a mystery actress Charlotte Henry who had important roles in "Alice in Wonderland" and "Babes in Toyland." If you read Ms. Henry's bio, there are some interesting tidbits in it that could tie into the story.
ReplyDeleteThe Betty Hutton guess is just from her picture on IMDB - it's the one where, to me anyway, she looks just like Tony Curtis in drag in "Some Like It Hot."
except neither of them won an Oscar..
ReplyDeletechenofan, yes, I remember someone posting more detailed info about the Brady family (including the leg thing - ick), but I can't find it. Would you happen to have the link? Thanks. :)
ReplyDeletei still think we need to stop fixating on the oscar
ReplyDeleteThough i am a little disappointed that my golden globes theory was shot down... i thought i had something there. Dang.
Have we discussed why there is a 10 year gap in Alice Brady's acting between '23 and '33???
ReplyDeleteAlso, I just read that William Brady lost everything in the stock crash of '29. But, he was able to come up with financing to produce a Pulitzer Prize winning play in the same year netting him .5 mil!
This guy had connections...
dawn:
ReplyDeleteI don't have the link..I just remember it was on one of the other threads..I think the one that ran from Friday over the weekend?
Oh, I know that - seems like I've been obsessed with Oscars for much of my life. It's just that if it were either of those actresses, it seem like a fairly interesting reveal. Charlotte Henry even commented that after winning the part of Alice in Alice in Wonderland she felt she lost her identity and "lost interest" in making movies fairly soon after "Babes in Toyland."
ReplyDeletebecka said...
ReplyDelete"i still think we need to stop fixating on the oscar"
what other "very big award" for film that honors actresses and supporting actresses is there?
i dont know... :-(
ReplyDeletefarygica, I agree, Wm Brady Sr. sounds shifty to me. The second paragraph of that American Heritage page and all of the ventures he was involved in just screams to me that he was an opportunist. Even though I was somewhat skeptical in the beginning that he was in on the switch, I now think that he sounds exactly like the type who would manufacture such a scheme for monetary gain.
ReplyDeleteNevermind about the gap... it appears she was on Broadway at that time... making lots of money for her Dad???
ReplyDeletefarygica said...
ReplyDelete"Have we discussed why there is a 10 year gap in Alice Brady's acting between '23 and '33???"
yes..check out her credits on ibdb.com
farygica said...
ReplyDelete"Nevermind about the gap... it appears she was on Broadway at that time... making lots of money for her Dad???"
only some of the shows she appeared in during that time were Brady produced.
Holy cow, it's gotta be AB!! There are two of her -- that's why she looks different in the earlier photos!! I'm dying to know the real story.
ReplyDeleteOh, oh -- maybe Alice was a twin?? Is that too obvious? Something like that.
I'm so excited!!
I have an idea that AB will NOT be on ENT's list tomorrow. Just a hunch. My hunches are always wrong, but that's what I'm going with.
Yes chenofan. But is he managing her? Getting a % off of her? I'm agreeing and supposing with Dawn that Dad was working the system from both ends and his daughter was right in the middle. No wonder she was sick all of the time... maybe that's why they had to come up with another Alice, to cover when she was not able to work??
ReplyDeleteI've been firmly fixated on Alice, then wavered with his comment about someone being dropped too easily, now I'm back to Alice but it still bothers me that I can't see a scar. So that leaves me wondering if it could be an Emmy that Timmy won. On IMBD it says that an Emmy is the TV version of the Oscar.
ReplyDeleteStill looking for a scar and a role that is the subject of the blind. What is the subject of the blind?
the only reference in his bio to anyone he managed was prizefighters, never a mention of managing any actors.
ReplyDeleteThe Oscar is shaped like a man.
ReplyDeleteThe Emmy is shaped like a woman.
Did anyone win one of each?
Maria said...
ReplyDeleteSo that leaves me wondering if it could be an Emmy that Timmy won. On IMBD it says that an Emmy is the TV version of the Oscar."
but EL points to the award winnig role being in a film:
"Sunday after brunch I went to Blockbuster and I rented the award winning film.."
ChenoFan said...
ReplyDelete"the only reference in his bio to anyone he managed was prizefighters, never a mention of managing any actors."
I'm thinking if it's all in the family maybe there is no mention. I don't know, just a thought.
Also, I have been staring at these photos here: (you have all been there a million times)
http://silent-movies.com/Ladies/PBrady.html
There seemes to be a beautiful Alice and then kind of a "severe" Alice. The only thing I can really put my finger on is the distance between the top of her lips and the very base of here nose seems to be different between the 2. "Severe" Alice's is much longer. And then, there is just a look in her eyes. Regular Alice always has this longing, lovely look. "Severe" Alice does not have that. She looks colder.
I have never been on the AB band wagon until today. I'm convinced.
What about the "two of" being that Shimmy won two Academy Awards in the same year, or won awards for two different roles the same year? I know there are cases like that... can't recall which right now.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone been nominated for & won Oscars for Best Supporting Actress & Best Actress in the same year?
ReplyDeleteThey can't have for the same role. Ent says that Timmy was honored for one role not two different roles.
ReplyDeleteI am the Road Warrior said...
ReplyDelete"The Oscar is shaped like a man.
The Emmy is shaped like a woman.
Did anyone win one of each?"
Loretta Young won and Oscar and several Emmys
Claire Trevor won an Oscar and an Emmy
Patty Duke won and Oscar and an Emmy
Cloris Leachman won and Oscar and and a couple of Emmys
Katharine Hepburn won several Oscars and an Emmy
Did Katharine Hepburn's brother definitely die?
ReplyDelete“#1 Noah's Ark. You know that whole two of each thing. “
ReplyDeleteI love how EL is so ambiguous.
This Timmy/ Shimmy thing is so much fun but so frustrating too.
SO there are so many different ways to analyze this but maybe the simplest way to translate this is exactly like what we have been saying: there are 2 ABs one a woman (AB 1) and one a man (AB2 aka Shimmy).
Calla said...
ReplyDelete"Did Katharine Hepburn's brother definitely die?"
according to Hepburn's autobiography, as well as other biographies, he was cremated and is buried in the Hepburn family plot in Cedar Hill Cemetery in CT.
I guess it does look more and more like Alice Brady!
ReplyDeleteThe "two of each" suggests to me not only two "Alice Brady"s but perhaps two "Timmy"s as well? Perhaps he took a different name when he went back to acting after winning the award? In which case, we should be looking for two actors--one whose career ends in the early 30s [When? Can we pinpoint a date on the pictures when the "Alice"s switch over?], and one whose career starts in the early '40s.
ReplyDeleteI've just fast-forwarded through 3 movies:
ReplyDeleteMy Man Godfrey
In Old Chicago
Abe Lincoln in Illinois
I still don't see any evidence of a scar, not a big one. Alice does seem to have something odd about her lower lip.
Otherwise, it's Alice, the same person, in all three movies.
She's doing a comedy voice in the first one, and a melodramatic one in the second two. It's a low voice, but plenty of women have low voices. I can't see anything prominent like an Adam's apple, either.
One thing is true about Alice -- she's very short. She's shorter than Carole Lombard in Godfrey, and Carole was only 5'2".
Myrlin:
ReplyDeleteI would say Timmy/Shimmy as Alice started with her return to movies in 1933.
Hardly any men are *that* short...I find it hard to believe that Timmy would be that short.
ReplyDeleteWhat if we drop Alice Brady & brainstorm about other possibilities?
Calla said...
ReplyDelete"Hardly any men are *that* short...I find it hard to believe that Timmy would be that short."
I'm only 5'3" (well..5'2 3/4")
plus Alice may have been in lower heels..or no heels..compared to Lombard.
didn't one of Alice's bios somewhere say that she was 5'7" or some such?
David said:
ReplyDelete"One thing is true about Alice -- she's very short. She's shorter than Carole Lombard in Godfrey, and Carole was only 5'2"."
all references I can find for Carole say she was 5'4".
long time lurker....
ReplyDeleteEnt said that shimmy was nominated for best actress and supporting, but only won one and it was for two different movies. he was the lead in the movie he met his man, and at the same time was filming the supporting role (which Ent said he did really well in because possibly was so happy 4 meeting his man, which makes me think he won the supporting role award).
anyhow, i had to go back and read the original BI post and Ent said something that i think i missed before. i only skim through the comments at work, so i dont know if this has been mentioned a lot, but Ent says that he went and rented the AWARD WINNING FILM to watch it. ok, so does that mean that THE FILM itself won an award too? people usually dont call a film award winning if only the actors won an award, but not the film itself. so, should we look for the film that won for best film and best supporting actress (or best actress)? that would cut it down to 4 people, AB being one...
okay some say 5'2" for Carole some say 5'4"..so she was prob 5'3"..lol
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to tell in films, of course. But Carole is quite a bit shorter than William Powell, who was short himself. And Alice is shorter than Carole.
ReplyDeleteajurk:
ReplyDeletewhat EL said was : "There he was, the woman who was really a gay man was being honored for being the Best Supporting Actress/Best Actress of the year. Its up to you to figure out which of the two he won."
it's not that Shimmy was nominated for both awards..but that we had to figure out which category Shimmy won for.
Wikipedia says that Alice Brady was born in 1892. Wouldn't that make it hard for her male alter ego to have died around 1980-1985? Even if he died in 1985, he would have been 88 years old and most people that I know that are that age die from old age rather than AIDS.
ReplyDeleteNo kidding about Alice looking like two different people. Check out these two pictures I took from the silent movies site mentioned above... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/390520/alices.jpg
ReplyDeleteDifferent jaw, different nose...
Chenofan...oops...I apologize. I kind of knew I should have checked some stats before making a bold statement like that. ;)
ReplyDeleteLisa:
ReplyDeleteJust because Alice was born in 1892..it doesn't mean Timmy was..he could have been born 10 to 15 years later than Alice.
I don't have any problem recognizing Alice Brady in both those pictures, taken 20 years apart.
ReplyDeleteThe nose looks a little different, but it's a different angle, and they did have cosmetic surgery back then (nose jobs).
That older picture is what Alice looked like as a young woman. There are plenty of other pictures that look like that.
You should see pictures of me, twenty years and 35 pounds ago.
;)
Hey everyone,
ReplyDeleteI decided to take a different angle and really focus on the verbal clues ENT gives us. He cryptically says "he was cast in another role which is the subject of the blind." I took this literally, and started thinking about the actual subject of the entry "The Life and Times of Timmy."
Then, ENT hinted about Noah's ark. So I started thinking about two's, things going hand in hand, the idea of "both."
Maybe, just maybe... our Shimmy was so exquisite in her award winning role that she was on the covers of both LIFE and Time magazine for the year of her Oscar win?
Perhaps I'm taking this too far and just getting excited over nothing, but I couldn't help it.
Here are links to cover searches for both magazines; it's very late and I still have real work to finish. Maybe someone else will have better luck?
LIFE: http://www.life.com/Life/cover_search/
Time:
http://www.time.com/time/coversearch
P.S. I've lapsed in the comments, so I do apologize if this has already been explored
ChenoFan said...
ReplyDeleteLisa:
Just because Alice was born in 1892..it doesn't mean Timmy was..he could have been born 10 to 15 years later than Alice.
Yes, but that would have made Timmy 7 years old when Alice was 22 and acting in her first film.
Are we assuming that the male and female Timmy weren't the same person? Even then, I think it's too much of an age difference and the male Timmy would have been 73 when he died, which is still kind of old.
not when AIDS was in its infancy..73 would not have been too old..and remembr..EL said it wasn't AIDs specifically..but AIDS related complications.
ReplyDeletePneumonia is one of those complications.
Also, didn't ENT say that this all happened in a 50 year time span and Timmy died between 1980-1985? The majority of Alice Brady's acting career was before that time period and that time period certainly wouldn't cover the times before she was female.
ReplyDeleteEL said it happened in the 50 year time span leading up to the time Timmy died..so yes it would be--that would span 1930-1980 to 1935-1985.
ReplyDeleteand we are saying that the 2nd Alice Brady wasn't the same as the first Alice Brady..and that Timmy was the 2nd one.
ReplyDeletesnowshyn said...
ReplyDelete"No kidding about Alice looking like two different people."
Zounds! Nice job snowshyn! See, I get the nose job thought but really, look at the difference of the jawline... and the chin is just flatter... and I am pretty sure they were not doing eye lifts back then but look at older Alice on the right, with the nose job and mighty different looking eyes then Alice on the left.
AND, look at the difference in the length of the neck! TOTALLY different.
I can't help being still hung up on his original description of Timmy as having "very pale features." I take this to mean blonde (which I do realize can be changed!) and blue-eyed... much less easy to change eye color back then than it is today, I should think.
ReplyDeleteor could mean blond or reddish hair and very fair skin.
ReplyDeleteChenoFan said...
ReplyDeleteand we are saying that the 2nd Alice Brady wasn't the same as the first Alice Brady..and that Timmy was the 2nd one.
From reading all the BI's, I was under the impression that the male Timmy and the female Timmy were one person. How did you guys figure out it's two people?
oh man, my blood is pumping, Marie Dressler was on the cover of Time! The LIFE online records don't go back that far. Argck!
ReplyDeleteHer Wikipedia entry leaves much to the imagination as to her early life, but she was a stage actress. Also, she passed away shortly after her Oscar win for Best Actress.
Also, it said that the female Timmy had to make up a story about where she came from. That would imply to me that it's one person we're talking about and not Alice Brady because she didn't have to make up a story about where she came from.
ReplyDeleteGuapista, We mentioned that before also :)
ReplyDeleteI've been checking out the awards angle here:
ReplyDeletehttp://theenvelope.latimes.com/factsheets/awardsdb/env-awards-db-landing,0,3713019.htmlstory
The awards listed for the year that Alice won best supporting AA for In Old Chicago are:
Academy Awards
New York Drama Critics Circle Awards
Photoplay Gold Medal Awards
Drama League Awards
New York Film Critics Awards Pulitzer Prize for Drama
National Board of Review Awards
No other Alice Brady wins, here, although I think this list might be incomplete - a few of them only list awards for the movie, not for the actors/actresses, including Photoplay.
Every time I think I'm on to something, boom! A brick wall.
Re: the Brady side-by-side shots, first of all, I think she's absolutely gorgeous in the younger left hand one. Her face in that shot is etched in my memory. The older one on the right hand side, I've never seen that particular picture, but I've seen a picture of the same person, whether it be our Timmy, or just an older Alice. The thing I've noticed in this shot though is that it looks less like the picture of the younger Alice than the other older picture I'm thinking of. Does that even make sense? I think I'm burning out, here...
Also, I don't think it's improbable for a 73 year old man to have aids. Older people enjoy sex too, y'know. ;)
Finally, I took the 50 year time frame to indicate when Timmy came onto the scene as Shimmy, which works. 1980 minus 50 years = 1930, so working from that, that would give him a couple of years to get used to the 'role,' to perfect it, before Alice's second series of films began in 1933.
snowshyn said...
ReplyDeleteNo kidding about Alice looking like two different people. Check out these two pictures I took from the silent movies site mentioned above...
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/390520/alices.jpg
I took the photo on the left (ribbon tied around head) and a 1933 photo by Geo Hurrell
(http://www.hurrellphotos.com/default.asp?ID=4&action=largeimage&imgid=359)
and superimposed them in Photoshop.
The Hurrell photo is taken from a slightly higher angle but I've got to say, the chin, 3/4 profile, and distance between the eyes all match.
Marie Dressler was also born in 1868...so that wouldn't have given Timmy much time to work up his Shimmy act or to have gotten a list of credits in films where he was mostly in the chorus of musicals..since sound only came to be in 1927.
ReplyDeleteThis has probably been mentioned already but I’m kind of new to this – I thought the Oscars were only televised from 1953 onwards? The wording of “the award with all the television viewers” seems meaningful to me, but most guesses seem to be for people who have won Oscars prior to 1953.
ReplyDeleteit's not saying the awards were televised at the time Shimmy won...just that it's a well know award watched by lots of people on TV.
ReplyDeleteAlice Brady also had a son, which I think would have been mentioned in the BI.
ReplyDeleteAlice's son is also mysterious..and he supposedly died in 1942
ReplyDeletealso remember that it could be a part of the invented bio that EL says is still the story accepted today.
ReplyDelete"#4 Remember that Timmy was under a great deal of pressure even back then about his biography as a woman. People wanted to know where she was from, etc. Timmy provided information and it wasn't as easy to check on stories and timelines for reporters then, and so whatever an actress said about their past was generally just accepted and is reflected on the "official" biography for Timmy as an actress. The story Timmy gave is the one still in use."
ReplyDeleteThanks, gillian, that's the older picture I had in mind:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.hurrellphotos.com/default.asp?ID=4&action=largeimage&imgid=359
So what I was trying to say is that IMO, the picture from that link and this: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/390520/alices.jpg
picture on the right look like they're the same person to me. But, the older picture in the first link looks more like a young Alice than does the older picture in the second link. Which doesn't add up, I know, but hey, I'm just rambling, here.
Yes, but if her brother took over for her then neither of them would have had to make up a biography besides changing the word "son" or daughter" to William A. Bradford.
ReplyDeletegillian...
ReplyDeleteAny way you could post that super-imposed image. I would love to get this "2 ABs" theory out of my head!
who is William A. Bradford?
ReplyDeleteAlso, it says no one knew that it was really a gay man performing as a woman. William A. Bradford would have had to of known. And when and how do you think Alice Brady really died?
ReplyDeleteand her brother supposedly died in 1935..so I don't think he took over for her..he was only a half-brother anyway..but yet another "mysterious" death.
ReplyDeletewho is William A. Bradford?
ReplyDeleteher dad...who owned World Studios and made her silent films..
again who is William A. Bradford? her father and brother were William A. Brady, Sr & Jr
ReplyDeleteLisa said...
ReplyDeletewho is William A. Bradford?
her dad...who owned World Studios and made her silent films..
NOPE..WILLIAM A. BRADY, Sr was her father
her father, the broadway/silent film producer...
ReplyDeleteThe male Timmy wouldn't have had to go back and get roles on broadway before coming back as his sister if it were Alice Brady, in that situation.
Lisa said...
ReplyDeletewho is William A. Bradford?
her dad...who owned World Studios and made her silent films..
NOPE..WILLIAM A. BRADY, Sr was her father
What? That's what every credible web site/source says. Her father was a broadway/silent film producer who owned World Studios, the movie studio that produced her silent films.
no one ever said Timmy went back to Broadway..just that he went back into the theatre.
ReplyDelete"Timmy traveled and did the theatre route for almost two years while building up a resume and a background for his new persona. When he finally felt as if he had it down, Timmy returned to Hollywood. This time as a woman."
farygica: Am checking to see if I can post it on CDAN message board.
ReplyDeleteWhat? That's what every credible web site/source says. Her father was a broadway/silent film producer who owned World Studios, the movie studio that produced her silent films.
ReplyDeleteand that was WILLIAM A. BRADY...not BRADFORD.
Also, all of the web sites I've been searching don't mention a William A. Brady, Jr. or the death of her son..
ReplyDeleteOk, typo-we're still talking about the same guy.
ReplyDeletefrom the Internet Broadway Database:
ReplyDeleteAlice Brady
( b. Nov 2, 1892 New York, NY, USA - d. Oct 28, 1939 New York, NY, USA ) Female
Performer, Producer
Also known as:
Mary Rose Brady [Birthname]
Relations:
Daughter of William A. Brady
Daughter of Alice Brady
Step-daughter of Grace George
Wife of James L. Crane (1919 - 1922) divorced; child, Donald
William A. Brady
( b. Jun 19, 1863 San Francisco, CA, USA - d. Jan 6, 1950 New York, NY, USA ) Male
Producer, Theatre Owner/Operator, Director, House Manager, Performer
Also known as:
W.A. Brady
Relations:
Father of William A. Brady, Jr.
Father of Alice Brady
Father of Barbara Brady
Husband of Alice Brady (? - c. 1896) her death; daughter Alice
Husband of Grace George (1897 - 1950) his death; son Bill Brady Jr
William A. Brady, Jr.
( b. circa.1900 New York, NY, USA - d. Sep 26, 1935 Colt's Neck, NJ, USA ) Male
Producer, Director
Grace George
( b. Dec 25, 1879 New York, NY, USA - d. May 19, 1961 New York, NY, USA ) Female
Performer, Producer, Writer, Director
Relations:
Mother of William A. Brady, Jr.
Step-mother of Alice Brady
Step-mother of Barbara Brady
Wife of William A. Brady
Thanks gillian!
ReplyDeleteHere's something else I found odd. I found this on the Crazy Days and Nights message board, in the Timmy thread that was created there. I apologize if this has been mentioned already. I don't remember it being, but the thousands of posts over the past couple of weeks are blurring together for me, y'know?
ReplyDeleteSomeone found and posted a picture of Alice's grave marker:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=3801
Scroll down, the marker is at the bottom of the page. You can click to enlarge it.
What I found strange about this is, her ex-husband's name is on the marker! Her marriage was brief, only 3 years, and it supposedly ended in divorce 17 years before her 'official' death, so why would she still be using his name?
I realize that this may have been done more commonly back then by traditional women, but she certainly doesn't strike me as traditional. She was independent with her own career, etc, famous in her own right.
Just tossing out possibilities here, but what if she had never divorced, and instead left her husband a widower? Then, her exploitative father who wanted to keep her career going for financial reasons found a replacement Alice?
I know it's far-fetched, but so is this entire thing. Go ahead, poke holes in this theory, tell me why it doesn't work, so I can move onto another angle. ;)
It's not Alice Brady.
ReplyDeleteThere are just too many things wrong with that guess.
no one else fits the parameters either..so EL must be pulling our legs and it's just a bunch of hooey
ReplyDeleteHow are you guys explaining the fact that William A. Brady, Jr. never had a acting career in theater (he produced and staged, but didn't act) and the fact that he DIED in 1935?
ReplyDeleteSorry, farygica, apparently there's no way to post images. Unless someone else can tell me: anyone know how I can upload an image from my computer so everyone can see?
ReplyDeleteI think if it's a real BI, and he's not making crap up, it's going to be someone more recent than Alice Brady...someone from the 40's-50's.
ReplyDeletenot everyone thinks it was her brother..I certainly don't.
ReplyDeleteanyone could have used the name Alice Brady onstage on Broadway prior to 1919..or anywhere if they were doing regional theatre not covered by Equity..then made their way to Hollywood and cadged credits/made up a bio.
And Brady Jr's death was also suspect..it ws posted on another board from I think a Bogart book or some such that he died in an explosion/fire where only part of an arm and a leg remained.
ReplyDeleteI think the theory is good, but it doesn't work out that well with Shimmy/Timmy.
ReplyDeleteTimmy has to be in Hollywood, as a man, a singer, in the chorus. This means talkies, which means, no earlier than 1927.
If Alice died during her marriage, that would mean before 1919.
P.S. I've been trying to think of the other possible candidates that were dismissed too easily.
First of all, for Timmy, Kenny Baker. It's the right timeline, for he stopped doing anything by the early 50s, which might have been when he turned into Shimmy. But I can't for the life of me figure out Shimmy, from Kenny.
For Shimmy, there are a couple of possibilities we may have overlooked.
Janet Gaynor
Dorothy Malone
And there are still some oddities about the foreigners on the list:
Katina Paxinou
Anna Magnani
Simone Signoret
Simone, in particular, really altered as she aged, from what appears to be a seductive beauty (in her youth) to a hard, puffy presence that definitely could be a man.
Just throwing it out there...
by other board I mean in one of the other Timmy threads here.
ReplyDeleteI saw this on another web site:
ReplyDeleteAlice Brady on IMDB does have a long career in silent film but there is a 10 year break between that and her short career in the 1930's, and I think Timmy either assumed the original Alice Brady's name and persona, or, far more likely, IMDB has simply fucked up like they do all the time, and the silent film work prior to 1923 could belong to the silent film actress Alice Brady and IMDB has placed both Alice Bradys bios under the same name.
Perhaps, it really was two people and they were both female Alice Brady's and IMDB made a mistake?
Except that Alice Brady's father was in the movie business in New York, and she made those silent films for him.
ReplyDeleteEven though it's a total shot in the dark, I want to throw out the split personality idea one more time, since it could fit in a weird sort of way with the latest clue, but seriously, U don't know who we could make it fit with.
ReplyDeleteKatharine Hepburn, maybe, but one would think that people would have really caught on to the fact that she had MPD.
Besides, I don't think any other websites have thrown out the MPD theory, so I really doubt it's that.
Simone Signoret worked for years and was still married to Yves Montand when she died. I liked Dorothy Malone for awhile, she just looks manly to me, but she was still working in 1992.
ReplyDeleteI can't go to sleep, I'm afraid I'll miss something exciting. Unless...do you think JJ being so old made it all up???
Long time lurker, first time poster.
ReplyDeleteAs for Timmy dying of ARC in the 80's, there were plenty of people that contracted AIDS via blood transfusions- even old men who were past their sexual primes. Timmy could easily been in his 80's or older.
I am going to need deprogramming after this is done...
Janet Gaynor
ReplyDeleteDorothy Malone
both worked long after their Oscar wins.
Gaynor was in a car accident with Mary Martin in San Francisco in 1982..and died 2 years after that.
Malone worked in film and television until 1992.
Katina Paxinou won her Oscar for her first Hollywwod credit.
Anna Magnani-continued to work in film and television until 1972
Simone Signoret also continued working in film and television here and abroad until 1985.
Lisa, I've never thought that Timmy was Alice's brother. I expect to find out that he's some unknown actor with a bunch of uncredited parts.
ReplyDeletegillian, could you upload the picture onto some photo-sharing site, and post the link?
David, she and Crane were married from 1919 to 1922, which still doesn't really work for the timeline, they divorced 5 years before talkies, unless the date of divorce was fudged, somehow? And, your new guesses, do they fit the criteria of an award win (most likely an AA) and then a career that ended soon after?
David,
ReplyDeleteI checked briefly into Katina Paxinou:
+trained as an opera singer
+did a lot of theatre
-won AA for her first role in Hollywood, so no buildup
-could not find a never-married A Lister for that time period
"Alice Brady on IMDB does have a long career in silent film but there is a 10 year break between that and her short career in the 1930's,"
ReplyDeleteAlice was doing shows on Braodway during that break... check IMdB.com
er..I mean IBDB.COM
ReplyDeleteWho asked for the Time magazine clip w/ William Brady JUNIOR's death mentioned?
ReplyDeletehttp://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:hTZJcJCMa9sJ:www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,755093-1,00.html+%22William+A.+Brady,+Jr.%22%2Bfire&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
"Katharine Hepburn, maybe, but one would think that people would have really caught on to the fact that she had MPD.'
ReplyDeleteMPD or not her credits go on far too long and she had more than one Oscar win.
oooooo after a loaded hint like "noah's ark" where everybody's thinking two alice bradys, this would be the PERFECT time to NOT alice brady us tomorrow =) I think we would all go crazy!
ReplyDeletePerhaps…
ReplyDeleteWm Brady was prime for revenge- World Pictures (their logo “World Pictures- Brady Built) had been stolen from him, Zukor his former protégé appeared on a TIME cover (Jan. 14, 1929) after he had stolen Brady’s production company -the thing he loved most … Zukor saddled up with Loew. Loew partnered with Mayer, etc, etc-
katina Paxinou is super-famous in Greece; I was born in the same town as she. He life and career are well-documented and she continued to act on the stage in Athens pretty much almost until she died. She was very prolific, only not in the USA.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I don't care at this point if it is real or made up... (but it better be real!)
ReplyDeleteThis has been a huge and wonderful adventure. Oddly, just when I was beginning to think Old Hollywood was really "rat-packy", incestual and all f#$ked up, I was reminded about todays Hollywood. Ugh. From now on, I'll be happy to take a walk to Old Hollywood any time EL asks me to. :-)
Kelsey: I think you could be right BUT I hope not.
ReplyDeleteI really like AB for this.
Unrelated, but from the link that Helena just posted:
ReplyDeleteDivorcing. Dorothy Gish, stage and screen actress: James Rennie, actor (Murder at the Vanities) ; in Bridgeport, Conn. She testified that he came home intoxicated on weekends, woke her up, babbled incoherently for hours, caused her to lose sleep and have fits of hysterical laughter, once induced an attack of hiccoughs that lasted six days.
LOL! People back then were freaks! I'm going to be bored with current celebrity gossip, now.
revenge perhaps..but what did it really get him? esp since Alice died shortly after the Oscar win. It's not like he made millions from Alice's movie career.
ReplyDeletePlus Alice's Oscar win was for a Fox movie..so...
David, Ent. NOT-ted Kenny Baker as Timmy some time ago.
ReplyDeletenow dawn...
ReplyDeleteI know a case of 6 hour hiccoughs can't hold a candle to Britney balancing a Venti soy iced macchiato, a puppy..and a baby but...
Dawn,
ReplyDeleteI know...
I love this part:
...woke her up, babbled incoherently for hours, caused her to lose sleep and have fits of hysterical laughter...
"...woke her up, babbled incoherently for hours, caused her to lose sleep and have fits of hysterical laughter..."
ReplyDeletesounds like she was dipping into the giggle juice too ;) oh those wacky Gish sisters!
Who said old Timmy got AIDS through sex? Older people like to shoot up too, you know.
ReplyDelete...but AB's first 5 movies in the 1930s were for MGM. maybe it would burn him up to know he gave Timmy that FIRST studio contract which launched a career?
ReplyDelete...see, now *I* am babbling incoherently...
So, Katina Paxinou is out??? Long follow-up career in Greece....I'm looking at a photo of her in "The Academy Awards: A Pictorial History" and I was just going to ask about her; I thought there might be some potential there.
ReplyDeleteBut I see she and her husband formed The Royal Theater of Athens, so she's definitely out.
Helena said...
ReplyDelete"...but AB's first 5 movies in the 1930s were for MGM. maybe it would burn him up to know he gave Timmy that FIRST studio contract which launched a career?"
I think if Lowe would have had any say and held a grudge..he wouldn't have ok'd a contract for Alice anyway.
Katina Paxinou...I mean, in Greece, she one of those famous people that people would take pics with and then show off the pics to their friends and tell the story of meeting her. Greeks are big on national pride. In Pireaus she's kinda like the 1972 Miami Dolphins, you know?
ReplyDeleteEveryone keeps mentioning that Alice Brady's brother died in 1935. Is everyone sure that it wasn't actually Alice who died and that for whatever reason someone took over her career. The timing of the death would be about right and there was no identifiable body.
ReplyDeleteAhh, but what does revenge really get u?
ReplyDeleteMaybe his original plan didn’t work out because of the skin disease thing and all he got was to go pick up AB’s Oscar- or maybe that was just enough for Wm Brady at that point.- maybe just maybe when Alice won the AA for FOX, Wm Brady decided revenge on MGM could not happen,
I don’t know for sure- none of us do but I can see how losing his company- his baby could have motivated Wm Brady.
People plot schemes all the time for a lot less then losing a company (William Brady built).
except that Alice was supposedly in Hollywood then and the half-brother died in upstate NY.
ReplyDeleteer...make that New Jersey
ReplyDeleteI think the key word there may be "supposedly". Who would know for sure? There had to be reason the switch was made. And Enty did say the WHY may be the most interesting part of the story.
ReplyDeletethe other issue is that her half-brother was never an actor.
ReplyDeleteSo I don't really see him filling in for Alice.
I'm not saying the brother took her place. Maybe her father was the producer of the show where Timmy went on for the star. He knew that he would be able to take on the role of being Alice. Maybe he sent William Jr to Europe to live.
ReplyDeleteDawn and Farygica:
ReplyDeleteThe 2 Alices, superimposed and separated, are posted here:
http://timmy-shimmy.blogspot.com/
"Maybe he sent William Jr to Europe to live."
ReplyDeleteI'd think Jr's wife, the actress Katherine Alexander, might have had something to say about that...
I surrender
ReplyDeleteLate and nutty are me... but, what if it was Alice who died in that fire... at the hand of the younger brother. Dad is strapped for cash and needs Alice to continue to perform... and a new Alice is born from the gay son, who Dad says he will turn in and/or "out" if he refuses. (William Brady got his start from filling in for someone else. He knows it can work.) We now have our 3. Timmy, the real Timmy. Timmy, who falls in love with an A-List closeted man allowing Timmy to coax out the performance of a lifetime AS the 3rd Timmy (who we call Shimmy) who walks off with a couple of major film awards of the time. Timmy was a man, playing a famous woman, playing a landmark female role.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder T/Shimmy was a mess... and here he is:
http://www.hurrellphotos.com/default.asp?ID=4&action=largeimage&imgid=359
One of the saddest photos I have ever seen.
"The 2 Alices, superimposed and separated, are posted here"
ReplyDeleteI think it's easy to see they are both the same person..the nose on older Alice may be a bit more aquiline, but the facial structure and look is the same.
When were these two pictures taken again?
ReplyDeletethe Hurrell is from 1933..I don't see a date on the other..but sine it's a pic from a page of silent film stars..I'd guess sometime between 1914 and 1923?
ReplyDeleteChenoFan: yes, I keep forgetting to say that... she must have had a nose job.
ReplyDeletegillian:
ReplyDeleteThanks! That is impressive. It does put it in perspective. I still think there is something off in other photos I am looking at but they are so old and shot from so may different angles it is hard to tell.
Thank you so much for posting it!
gillian said...
ReplyDelete"ChenoFan: yes, I keep forgetting to say that... she must have had a nose job."
Or she simply could have 'grown into' her looks...the nose isn't really THAT different..and if you consider the time the photo was taken.and the advances made in 'artful' photography from the 'Teens to the 1930s..
We also have to keep in mind that "Timmy" goes back to being Timmy until the early 1980's...so if Alice Brady really died in the fire, but was id'd as her brother, after the "death" of Alice in 1939, who does the faux Alice go back to being?
ReplyDeleteDoes that make any sense at 3AM on the east coast???
If William Brady, Jr. no longer exists b/c he is attributed as having died in the fire, but he took over as Alice b/c Alice really died...then faux Alice has a death date of 1939...who does William Brady, Jr. become as Timmy til 1980-1985? He doesn't have his own identity to go back to. Right?
I have come to a couple of realizations tonight:
ReplyDelete1. A photo with another photo superimposed over top of it is way more disturbing then either of the photos on their own (but I agree gillian, looks like the same person, except the nose in the later one is thinner and more sculpted - rhinoplasty).
2. I should not be surfing celebrity grave sites at nearly 3 am, but since I chose to do just that, I deserve to be creeped the hell out.
Can someone refresh my memory? Was it Brady or Kay Kendall who had been in a car accident, and attributed their obviously different nose to having it repaired from injuries suffered in the car accident? Like I said, it's all beginning to blur together.
The AB Hurrell photo is from 1933, but the older picture on the grave page looks even older, and even less like young Alice. I wonder when that was taken:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pis&GRid=3801&PIgrid=3801&PIcrid=66311&PIpi=268405&
no he wouldn't..but I still don't think it's Bill Jr who was Timmy..he was never an actor and has no Hollywood credits as such.
ReplyDeleteKK was the one who was in a car accident.
ReplyDeletethe pic on the grave page is I believe from "In Old Chicago" when she was playing an older Mrs. O'Leary.
ReplyDeleteThanks chenofan. They did a really good job of aging her/him/whoever.
ReplyDeleteUnless... Alice died in the fire and was then the arm and leg they found and then Wm Jr. took her place...
ReplyDeleteI am not sure if Shimmy was her brother BUT I could see how at this the point in time he took her place permanently.
Sorry- it is late east coast time.
I still think EL (hint earlier today) just meant there were two ABs- one male and one female- not sure if it was her brother or not
Dawn said...
ReplyDelete2. I should not be surfing celebrity grave sites at nearly 3 am, but since I chose to do just that, I deserve to be creeped the hell out.
The AB Hurrell photo is from 1933, but the older picture on the grave page looks even older, and even less like young Alice. I wonder when that was taken
I was totally creeped out reading the Time mag obit for Wm Brady Jr posted above... a bit too explicit for this time of night.
Hadn't seen the Find-a-grave photo before... good frontal view.... but to me, the eyes are the same.
here's a prod still from "In Old Chicago"
ReplyDeletehttp://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/
viewimage.x/00000000/gmoran2316/
BG821.jpg?vvid=21149976&allow_track_
link=1&track=02389b1cd1-47755&sp=1
Goodnight all... looking forward to tomorrows "nots".
ReplyDeletePretty sure EL won't "not" AB, whether it is her or not. AB is like "Door #2" on "Let's Make a Deal"!. EL will open door #1 or door #3, and even make a bunch of wagers and trades along the way, but EL will leave #2 until the very end... grrrrr.
Wm Brady, Jr. was a producer and director- so he could step in for AB BUT I still don't think he did take over for AB. I think EL's post mis-directed us and in reality the post just meant it there were 2 ABs.
ReplyDeleteand another still from "In Old Chicago"
ReplyDeletehttp://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=
68ctwtc&s=1
that's what I think as well GM
ReplyDeleteI think the AB conspiracy theory is favored here for the beauty of its drama possibilities, but it´s really far stretched. To see a huge family conspiracy, when just 10 people knew? And two of them were not family. There is too much risk and no gain of putting this up. Who should be the winner? AB? The fathers Studio?
ReplyDeleteI really believe that if Timmy was hired, he would have spoken out long ago.
Also, i dont believe that if a man/woman today is going to be on a sabbatical, the family would hire a (closeted) lesbian/man, respectively, to take their place at family appointments. or at the workplace. That would be a hell of a stunt. Not only changing the gender, but also adopting the others person character and habits.
My Noah´s ark interpretation is that like in the saying just a few made it throug the groundshaking changes. Still movies were dead, talkies upcoming. Musicals were out, just a few were "still running" good at the time. Studio system was still strong, but the first breaks would be visible. It is no secret that a dying part (stills) will not just give up without fighting.
So Timmy /Shimmy was always on the Ark. Going to movies when musicals were dying, a very few actors made the successfull transition through both eras - still and talk. Somehow, beeing used to body talk in stills, this would help a lot if later the actor would also talk, because he could accentuate his play to conceal the "speaking" give aways.
It took Timmy two years to perfect his role and CV for that. A i said before, it is highly unlikely that Timmy changed the gender of his stage persona, but also adoptes the character and habits of another person.
Timmy/Shimmy was an actor with the will to play and entertain his audience - this is why he went back to theatre after Shimmy. This was his nature. He had enough to hide in his closets just with his shimmiying. the least he would want to worry about would be to still look and act like alice brady.
He went out to play for the masses. And this i think could also be the duality reference of the second part of ents hint. If i would interpret that, then both shimmy and timmy were a pair of one particular breed: the absolute entertainer who goes the last mile for his audience.
Anyway, if this turns out to be true, Timmy should receive a potstume Oscar for his "lifetime" achievment.
@guapista:
Dressler was on the Time cover. in 33, a little after winning an oscar. Wich is normal. This is another reason why i favor Dressler. Because with this Time Mag "approval" nobody would continue to inquire and ask more questions about the bio. so it is still in use.
the problem with Dressler is she was far too old..and talkies were only 4 years old when she won her Oscar.
ReplyDeleteIn this pic that chenofan just posted:
ReplyDeletehttp://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=
68ctwtc&s=1
she has quite a cleft or something directly under her bottom lip. I've never noticed that in any other picture. Someone earlier tonight mentioned her having something strange about her bottom lip, too, after watching three of her movies from the talkie era.
I wonder - could this be mistaken for a scar?
if you look at her forehead in that pic..there's also an odd sort of mark apparent that could be a scar
ReplyDeleteThanks chenofan! That last still shows the line I thought might be a scar when I watched the movie--it's very faint, on her forehead. Though now I think there might be a faint scar on her left eyebrow? (Her right, I mean--on the left side of the picture. Though, come to think of it, the negatives could have been flipped in any of these photos.)
ReplyDeleteand if you look at most other photos of AB..there are either bangs or a hat or some such covering that part of her forehead
ReplyDeleteChenoFan said...
ReplyDeleteif you look at her forehead in that pic..there's also an odd sort of mark apparent that could be a scar
You're right, there is. This is the first time I've seen it myself, but I believe that others have referred to this as well, saying it could be a scar, or else a deep line or wrinkle. The problem with it being a deep wrinkle is, the rest of her face looks relatively unlined, so it's a little strange to develop one deep line on an otherwise relatively youthful face. Good call!
I realize that I am grasping here.. but could the Noah's ark clue have anything to do with water,rain,floods,etc? Any movies involved here have anything to do with water?
ReplyDeleteAnother random thought-why would EL post that someone had been discounted too easily if it was AB--it is apparent that she is the leading candidate. Was it just to throw us off? Has he been giving clues to throw us off--it seems to me that the clues have been to help,rather that throw us off. I think that clue was given before he he ruled out KK,but I took that clue to mean it wasn't either one of them. Anybody else have the same thoughts?
ReplyDeleteBut I thought the photoshop comparisons established that all the pics are the same person!! Have I missed something?
ReplyDeleteWasn't Timmy described as having very fair features? AB has very dark eyes. I'm not sold - despite the line which could be a scar on her right remple, close to and parallel to her hairline.
ReplyDeletetemple, I mean :D remples shouldn't be mentioned at this hour
ReplyDeleteman, the thing on her forehead just looks like a regular old wrinkle.
ReplyDeleteand that dent under her lip? just looks like a regular old dimple.
Those, are not scars.
Its going to take a lot more than that to convince me...
:-P
Also, i REALLY wish more people would start posing to the Message Board thingy. It would be a lot easier, since we have pages. And can start different threads, about specific topics, instead of everyone posting all willy-nilly here. (Sorry, i just jumped at the chance to use "willy-nilly". Its one of my favorite phrases, that I don't get to use very much)
ReplyDeleteBut yeah. The message board is the place to be!
http://p068.ezboard.com/fcrazydaysandnightsfrm9