Timmy Weekend Update
#1 Think water when you are thinking of Noah's Ark.
#2 Timmy is NOT
George Noisom
Robert Moore
#3 Shimmy is NOT
Marie Dressler
Friday, September 14, 2007
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554 comments:
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Here's another JJ possibility:
Dick Clayton, in his 90s. Bit parts in the 40s listed on imdb and virtually no bio. He went on to become an well-known agent and represented a lot of famous actors. He's always linked with James Dean and "discovered" Tab Hunter.
I went back and reread the orig Timmy post and it is sufficiently vague for JJ to fit. Have had no luck discovering if/to whom he was married.
Blake Edwards/Julie Andrews:
Don't forget Victor/Victoria!
:)
I think Ent has stretched his verbage a bit and JJ represents both Lawrence J. Quirk and his uncle James Quirk. Two Js.
If it's Alice Brady and the timeperiod is 1930s, it is physically impossible for a man to be alive now and have a wife who was working at a studio in the 30s.
That's what I said earlier - I don't see how JJ could still be alive, unless his wife was twice his age.
Yeah. We all keep repeating ourselves.
bruno,
You just sent a chill up my spine. Peter Potter/William Moore appeared (uncredited) in the 1935 film "Let Em Have It" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0026621/) with... Alice Brady.
Probably just a coinky-dink, but still pretty weird.
A possible Timmy candidate here: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0693338/ - Peter Potter, aka Bill Moore / William Mann Moore / William Moore
Born in Oklahoma, 30+ uncredited roles in films; died in 1983.
A William Moore doing musicals can be found in the IBDB: http://www.ibdb.com/person.asp?ID=387792 - Note that this could be a different, older William Moore because his credits go back to the turn of the century, or the credits of the two William Moores have been mixed.
Darn links got messed up in the previous post, sorry.
Sorry, not physically impossible...
Unless he's 97+.
Dire,
The signature pulling off the wig move i Victor/Victoria was Barbette's.
In terms of JJ's age - it sounds to me as if he wasn't married to Shimmy's roomate at that time. I kind of thought she would be a single girl if she was sharing accom.
That could mean she was as young as JJ was when he was a gofer. If Shimmy claimed she was about 18-20 then it wouldn't be hard to imagine the studio would put a younger girl with her - maybe a child star?
I was under the impression JJ was definitely still alive today? If he was 90 he would have been born in 1917 and would be 13 in 1930 when the story begins - that's the right age for a gofer.
I keep thinking about the Noah's Ark ref - could it refer to a lifeboat - ex. Hitch's Lifeboat or A Night to Remember, along those lines? Or the name, Fontaine, Lake... Also, is there a list anywhere of Cannes winners? They'd have to be televised in France, wouldn't they?
Check out this link. Yep, that's what it is a job listing.
https://www.ifp.org/jobs/job.php?id=4869
Huh. Barbette.
Well if Barbette hadn't died in the 1970s, I'd construct some elaborate Barbette/Timette theory with Blake Edwards, Elizabeth Taylor and Gypsy the elephant and as the centerpiece!
Ha.
Gotta love those female impersonators!
EL said in the original BI that JJ "started in the business when he was a kid doing gofer work." While I realize that anyone more than a decade younger than oneself could be described as a "kid" ;), I take EL's description to mean JJ was a teenager or younger when he started working.
ThaRealestGyrl said...
"And in my quest to find Timmy, I ran into Uncle Fester as part of my research. I never knew he was a childhood star and his parents robbed him of his wages."
hence the "Coogan Act" that was passed in 1939 in California to protect minors earnings from film work.
I still think its Mae West.
She doesn't fit, but neither does anyone else.
The Ark clue would be one of her co-stars, George Raft. LOL!
I can't wait for Wednesday to get here.
Friends:
Have you thought about why Ent. introduces JJ to the story at all? Why did Ent. simply tell the story of Timmy, without explaining that he heard it from JJ.
I have a theory: so that he can have "plausible deniability" if and when some of the details end up to be inaccurate. Should that be the case, then Ent. can simply say that JJ got some details wrong.
It's an idea...we'll know in a few days.
Brenda love,
That's great. LOL
Am gonna post this against my better judgement because if it turns out to be right you wouldn't believe that I thought it.
Katharine Hepburns brother hangs himself in May 1921. Katharine stops mixing with chidren her own age and begins to be tutored at home. The family moves house in autumn 1921. What if KH got pregnant by her brother during their incestuous relationship and that is the reason he commits suicide. The child has 'problems' due to the brother sister thing and this is Timmy. He gets sent away at birth to live with ? in the northeast.
I need sleep.
Ok, not perfect but Eve Arden?
Strangely, after the service, they handed out copies of her biography, The Three Phases of Eve. ... Lots of people were never sure of Eve's sexuality, tho ...
So many references all over to her being in drag. She won awards, recurring role, four kids, three publicly adopted. Play on words instead of three faces of eve, three phases. Three identities?
ENT says that Timmy grew up in the NE. He doesn't say that he grew up in America or NE USA. England is NE of the USA if you look at a map. Also...it says he is moving further and further west. Maybe ENT's way of not totally giving away that it is Margaret Rutherford who had to make her way west from Europe. Lastly, maybe the noah's ark double clue referred to Rutherford's adopted son who had a sex change. Both of them changed genders.
ENT says that Shimmy was guessed correctly on 3 seperate sites early on. I take this to mean that it was one of the predictable guesses before we started doing all the research.
I actually feel this can only be either a very old time actress who no-body cares about anymore or a child performer where it wouldn't be so scanadlous. ENT would never reveal that say Marlene Dietrich was actually a man - can you imagine the implications !!
I hope that ENT gives us a meaty clue on Monday to point us in the right direction and nots some of our regular guesses.
PS. Can't you tell the UK posters who post at 4am USA time !
Although I think this is all leading to Alice Brady, it still seems like legend to me. EL will show us pictures of Alice with a scar that can barely be seen, and then Timmy with a similar scar, and say that proves they are the same person. Yeah, ok...
Meanwhile, I think Alice doesn't fit all the clues precisely, but no one does.
Veronica Lake... is as likely as many. She was only 5' tall, and she had that bangcurl that covered part of her forehead (perhaps a scar?) She's from Brooklyn, her name is "Lake" and she lost her career pretty much by 1950. She did make some sporadic appearances after that, and was found working as a Bartender in a NYC bar in the 60s.
ljvedder said...
ENT says that Timmy grew up in the NE. He doesn't say that he grew up in America or NE USA. England is NE of the USA if you look at a map. Also...it says he is moving further and further west. Maybe ENT's way of not totally giving away that it is Margaret Rutherford who had to make her way west from Europe. Lastly, maybe the noah's ark double clue referred to Rutherford's adopted son who had a sex change. Both of them changed genders.
And also Margaret didn't appear at the award ceremony to accept her Oscar!!
OK, I have been watching silently ever since Ent posted the BI - you guys are all amazing. I have not had time to read every single comment so I apologize if this has already been discussed.
Ent said: "but you also need to think about WHY it happened in more detail. There's even a little bonus mystery solution at play in all of this which I think is almost the best part of the story."
Is it possible that Alice Brady was born not William A. Brady's daughter, but his son? Perhaps, he was born "Aloysius" Brady?
From what I have read about William Brady, he was a manly-man and probably would have completely rejected an effeminate son such as "Timmy/Aloysius".
Thus, Timmy/Aloysius was sent away to New Jersey.
However, is it possible that at some point, William realized the extent of "Timmy/Aloysius'" vocal abilities and, being the businessman that he was,realized a cash cow when he saw one? Thus, William had dreams for his son to become an opera star. So Aloysius was sent to Boston for further training.
Source: http://silentgents.com/BBrady.html
However, theater was in "Timmy/Aloysius'" blood and, as the above bio states, he went off to travel in the theater, against his father's wishes (possibly because, if it got back into the NY theater circle that William, who was a biggie in the NY Theater circuit, had a gay son, he might be embarrassed).
Is it not possible, that the role in which "Timmy/Aloysius" first stepped in for the lead actress was in "The Balkan Princess" as the prima donna?
Is it possible, that seeing his son, whom he was probably ashamed of to begin with, play a woman so beautifully, gave William another idea (another cash cow)? That between "Timmy/Aloysius" and William, a plan was hatched to create "Shimmy/Alice"?
Timmy would have had to have had help. According to the bio link I posted, William immediately cast "Alice" as a leading "woman" in his own theater productions. William would have provided the cover necessary to seamlessly blend Aloysius into Alice. It was a symbiotic relationship - Aloysius/Alice was able to do what he loved best - perform; and William was able to profit from it.
The date of death is important because, as the hives got worse, it became obvious to both William and Aloysius that the charade could continue no longer. Thus, it became necessary to "kill" Alice. The dream was over. Aloysius was able to go off into obscurity.
I have no idea where the scar is, or who the A-list boyfriend was - could have been Cesar Romero. Or who JJ is.
This whole thing has just completey captured my imagination as it has captured all of yours. I could completely be "all wet" when it comes to my theory. But I could certainly see something happening like this in a family.
Kudos to all of you for your hard work. I have really, really enjoyed your comments and honestly, without the info you all supplied, I would have never been able to dream up such a bizarre scenario. As I said, I could be, and probably am, completely wrong. But it was sure fun concocting the story. :) I would love to hear your thoughts and I can't wait for Wednesday.
Take care all,
Janet
I wish ENT would give a clue a day as I hate to see this loose momentum as people loose the will to search anymore over the same things. I have nowhere else to go at the moment.
Yikes! My theory falleth apart already! The Balkan Princess was at the Herald Square Theater in NY - not at a local theater in LA. So I am wrong about that part. ;)
I hear ya, melster, but ENT is busy with the Emmys this weekend, so I have a feeling we're stuck until the reveal. (Though one more clue would be nice...)
interplanet janet, I love your story! Even if it's bunk, it's a great theory. Alice Brady is still the leading guess around here, but here are the problems:
- Alice was born in 1892, making her far too old to be a rising ingenue, or to survive into the 1980s with AIDS.
- She was married to Broadway actor John Crane and had a son.
- Her famous background would have made a gender switch difficult to disguise.
- She was born in NYC, clearly not a small town
- The early timeline doesn't quite add up. She began in silent films in 1914, took a decade off (1923-33), then returned to talkies until her "death." Shimmy only did films as a woman for about 6 years.
Every other website thinks this story is a hoax.
Beginning to think this is a hoax myself now.
Thanks Christine! Hmmm... you are right. Maybe Alice actually existed but had a younger brother who stepped in for her? Just an idea...
I really hope the story isn't a hoax. So many of us have invested so much of our hearts in it. ;) Take care, Janet
Why Why
From a website that I was tracking a FI that won a contract from Paramount without them knowing the gender.
This “cross gender” casting was quite common in silent films; contract players would help out with small walk-on parts and stunt work as directors improvised on the set of these early movies in the days before unions.
So I think that unions along with the outlawing of cross dressing and homosexuality was a good why. Also I think because of this people shouldnt freak out over lavender marriages. Think about it you would not be able to have children in your life as a gay, they would have taken them away. So by viewing every possible T/S by their marital status is useless.
BTW this Emmy show really stinks.
I think when ENT eventually reveals that we should have our own awards.
HERO - the first person on this site to name Shimmy
ZERO - the first person to diss the Shimmy guess.
Hi everyone, this is my first comment here, so be gentle.
All you guys are doing such great work, I'm addicted.
I went through Ohnotheydidnt, a LJ blog a read the reposting of Timmy/Shimmy guesses there, since ENT said someone correctly guessed the identity early on from some other blog.
Has anyone compiled a list of folks guessed on other blogs?
ONTD's list was the usual suspects:
Kay Kendall
Alice Brady
Jean Hagen
Mercedes McCambridge
Anne Revere
Also...
Elizabeth Hartman
Beatrice Straight
Simone Signoret
Anna Magnani
Agnes Moorehead
Ann Harding
These are all the (sensible) names mentioned (other guesses were kinda off base or jokey, like Jessica Lange, Bea Arthur, or Hillary Swank, each of which would be wrong for a variety of reasons)
Alright.Good Night all, happy sleuthing.
Oh, and I know some folks guessed Deanna Durbin, but I wrote a fan letter to her in France when I was around age 13 or so ( 12 years ago) and I got a response, so either she's still alive or someone still answers her mail for her.
Yes, here is my compilation, but I must be missing a site or two, because I only came up with two names that had been mentioned on 3 sites, and neither of those names seem plausible.
Mentioned on 3 sites by Aug 30th 12:13pm:
Joan Crawford
Claire Trevor
Mentioned on 2 sites by Aug 30th 12:13pm:
Fay Bainter
Anne Bancroft
Alice Brady
Eileen Heckart
Mercedes Mccambridge
Anne Revere
Margaret Rutherford
Simone Signoret
Jo van Fleet
Shelley Winters
Teresa Wright
The sites:
http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/15025147.html
http://blinditems.typepad.com/dish/2007/09/the-actress-who.html
http://bitterjealousfatties.yuku.com/topic/1060/t/Entertainment-Lawyer-8-29-07-Blind-Item.html
http://members5.boardhost.com/pinkparlor/msg/archive/1188518688.html
http://www.gossiprocks.com/forum/blind-items/50426-entertainment-lawyer-08-29-07-a.html
http://groups.google.com.nf/group/alt.gossip.celebrities/browse_thread/thread/1fc4fd
http://survivorsucks.yuku.com/topic/14718/t/The-Mother-of-all-Blind-Items.html
Thanks for that list. Does it include this site?
ENT eliminated Mercedes McCambridge, by the way.
No, my compilation doesn't include this site. Sorry about Mccambridge.
P.S. I didn't include this site because ENT said it was named on three OTHER sites...you probably know this already, but I just thought I'd clarify for anyone who might not remember that.
...and by "it was named" I meant "the correct person (shimmy) was named".
I hate that I can't edit my posts. ;)
OK, this is really bad...the Emmys just referenced Helen Hayes, Loretta Young, and Barbara Stanwyck, and all I could think was "Not Shimmy, Not Shimmy, Not Shimmy." Damn, none of them are Shimmy.
ON SURVIVOR SUCKS DIRE POTATOE SAYS........
Jesus what a bunch of fucking idiots.
I think in my feverish mind I said something about having more faith in the public's ability to research and come up with logical thoughts.
Scratch that all to hell...
That fucking CDN comment site and the EZ board ... I mean, what community college are these brainiacs from?
OH LET US ALL BOW DOWN TO THE GREATER KNOWLEDGE OF DIRE POTATOE.
TOSSER !!
LOLOLOLOLOL
Gogolola I was thinking the same exact thing!
calla, we need to include the guesses from this site in your list. Here's what ENT actually said:
"The post was reposted on several sites and was guessed correctly on at least 3 of them. I won't say if anyone has guessed correctly on my site."
He did not say "3 other sites," and did not exclude this site from those on which Shimmy was correctly guessed.
I have capitalized the key words which lead me to interpret that he meant 3 OTHER sites...NOT including this one:
"The post was REPOSTED on SEVERAL SITES and was guessed correctly on at least 3 of THEM. I won't say if anyone has guessed correctly on my site."
Anyway, I don't care what he meant, I'm done trying to compile this crap. ;) Here is my complete list of guesses on other sites posted before Aug 30th at 12:13pm ... so if someone else wants to compile the guesses from this site made before that time & combine with this listing, go for it! :) BTW, I have not deleted the already-eliminated names from this listing.
There follows the individual sites and the guesses at each site made before Thurs Aug 30 @ 12:13pm
http://blinditems.typepad.com/dish/2007/09/the-actress-who.html
Kay Kendall
Judy Holliday
Margaret Rutherford
Marie Dressler
Alice Brady
http://bitterjealousfatties.yuku.com/topic/1060/t/Entertainment-Lawyer-8-29-07-Blind-Item.html
Joan Crawford
http://members5.boardhost.com/pinkparlor/msg/archive/1188518688.html
Margaret Rutherford
Shelley Winters
Eileen Heckart
Audrey Hepburn
Bette Davis
Jane Wyman
http://www.gossiprocks.com/forum/blind-items/50426-entertainment-lawyer-08-29-07-a.html
Katharine Hepburn
Claire Trevor
Mercedes McCambridge
Josephine Hull
http://groups.google.com.nf/group/alt.gossip.celebrities/browse_thread/thread/1fc4fdaa9bd962ae
Jo van fleet
Sandy Dennis
http://survivorsucks.yuku.com/topic/14718/t/The-Mother-of-all-Blind-Items.html
Simone Signoret
Faye Bainter
Anne Revere
Sandy Dennis
Mercedes Mccambridge
Ruth Gordon
Teresa Wright
Gloria Grahame
Gene Tierney
Claire Trevor
Jo Van Fleet
Jessica lange
Anne Bancroft
Josephine Hull
Shirley Booth
Joan Crawford
http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/15025147.html
ann bancroft
elizabeth hartman
Eileen Heckart
Joan Crawford
Fay Bainter
Teresa Wright
Ann Harding
Shirley Booth
Josephine Hull
Anna Magnani
Simone Signoret
Lauren Bacall
Shelley Winters
Carmen Miranda
Sandy Dennis
Jo van Fleet
Agnes moorehead
Anne Revere
Alice Brady
Greta Garbo
Beatrice Straight
Claire Trevor
Jean Hagen
I am jumping on the Alice Brady bandwagon. All of the facts that Enty has given us point to her. Her career timeline, the fact that she could sing, that she was from the Northeast. And in the photo on imdb.com it looks as if there's a scar on the right side of her face next to her nose..
Cyn
Cyn,
Are you sure that's not a smudge on your monitor? Cuz I'm not seeing a dayum thing. ;)
Just some weird things to mention...
DelcoDave wrote:
"On another note: I was surprised to see there is actually a movie called Noah's Ark in 1928 where the actors/actresses played dual roles, hence the "2 by 2 in pairs" thing."
I was curious so I looked that up…That version of Noah's Ark starred Dolores Costello, now known as Drew Barrymore's grandmother. Just some interesting things to note in her bio:
After her divorce from John Barrymore, Dolores returned to acting in several big budget pictures and her career seemed to be back on track. Her physical appearance however was greatly damaged due to harsh studio make-up used in the early years. The skin on her cheeks were in the process of deteriorating, forcing her into early retirement. She lived in semi-seclusion on her Southern Californian avocado farm, Fallbrook Ranch, where a much of the memorabilia and papers from both the Barrymore and Costello family were destroyed in a flood.
No awards except a star on the Walk of Fame.
Also, there's a fan site and the main article is titled: "The Life and Times of Dolores Costello Barrymore."
And this is really funny—Lou Costello was born Louis Cristillo in Paterson, NJ and supposedly “adopted” the name from her. He wasn’t successful in his first attempt in Hollywood. She encouraged him to keep going. He went back on the road using her last name and became a star.
Costello did have a great personality, however, he wasn’t gay, and he died in 1959. He was “gay” in the old sense of the word—happy, fun. And his “partner” was the opposite of A-list closeted man—Groucho Marx called Bud Abbott the “greatest straight man ever.”
I’ve read this site from the beginning and have never posted before. I’ve read every post for this item and been so impressed with everyone’s work. It’s amazing that we can all find so many tidbits in different avenues—the pictures EL used on the first Timmy post, the works of William Mann, etc. that fit a number of clues but not all. I just thought this one was kind of funny. Can’t wait for Wednesday!
Joan Crawford had a brother, Hal Le Seuer, who did bit roles in Hollywood for awhile.
Perhaps this story is about somebody who replaced an ailing star in a movie, but she recovered and he went back to playing a man.
Could happen...
Anyway, just adding this to the pile of things to look up.
I know this probably won't be the popular opinion- but I hope ENT reveals either Timmy or Shimmy- but not both and gives us time to figure out who the other is before telling us..... knowing half will make figuring out the other half even more interesting...
OK, I've taken the time to hone the guess list above.
On August 30, ENT said that Shimmy had been guessed correctly on 3 sites. Here are all names mentioned on 3 or more sites (including this one) as of August 30--striking out names that were ridiculous, or which ENT eliminated:
Margaret Rutherford
Alice Brady
Claire Trevor
Jo van fleet
Gale Sondergaard
Faye Bainter
Anne Revere
Teresa Wright
Here are all guesses mentioned on TWO or more sites (just in case there's a site I'm missing, which is very possible):
Simone Signoret
Gloria Grahame
Anna Magnani
Beatrice Straight
Irene Dunne
Eileen Heckart
Kay Kendall
Also, ENT said that Timmy had not been guessed correctly on ANY site. Therefore, Timmy is not Don Novis, Robert Drivas, Tim McCoy, or Arthur Blake
Christine - For the record, I strenuously disagree that ENT meant that it had been guessed correctly on three sites INCLUDING this one. I really don't understand how you can interpret his words that way. The "THEM" in his sentence refers back to the "several sites" where the post was REPOSTED (see quote below):
"The post was reposted on several sites and was guessed correctly on at least 3 of THEM. I won't say if anyone has guessed correctly on my site."
On an 8/30/07 clarification EL gave the impression that the biographical information that Timmy gave for Shimmy was fabricated. If so, then it can't be AB. Her history is too well known. Or did I misunderstand what EL was trying to say?
Also, does anyone find it strange that Wikipedia says that William Brady (AB's father) got his start on the stage when he was working as a callboy on a production in San Francisco and went on in place of a sick actor (which could have meant actress). Sounds like Timmy's first time to me. I hope that we don't end up a story that is actually a blend of a dozen different stories told but a 90 year old guy who may not know the difference.
“On an 8/30/07 clarification EL gave the impression that the biographical information that Timmy gave for Shimmy was fabricated. If so, then it can't be AB. Her history is too well known. Or did I misunderstand what EL was trying to say?”
No, this actually helps the AB case. We are supposing that she was switched out with Timmy and then it would follow that Timmy’s background bio was fake.
“Also, does anyone find it strange that Wikipedia says that William Brady (AB's father) got his start on the stage when he was working as a callboy on a production in San Francisco and went on in place of a sick actor (which could have meant actress)”
Hey who knows, at this point I feel like we all have been playing a massive game of six degrees of separation (since before Labor Day).
PS: In my research, the stepping in thing- has happened a number of times.
Chill out, calla. Let's agree to disagree. ENT's sentence structure is (always) vague and I'm reading it differently than you. There's no need to be rude or start an argument over it.
Besides, your "list" had only 2 names on it, so it obviously needed honing. :)
I guess we can both agree that my "Posted on 3 sites" list needed honing. I just wish someone would find another site or two that had postings before noon-ish on Aug 30th.
I just went back and re-read it with a more open mind...and I have to concede you could be right, Christine. ;) I've just been thinking one way for so long that I had a hard time shifting gears. Thank you for the fresh perspective!
So...these are the names worth looking at long and hard...
Margaret Rutherford
Alice Brady
Claire Trevor
Jo van fleet
Gale Sondergaard
Faye Bainter
Anne Revere
Teresa Wright
Calla, Are you still here?
Margaret Rutherford: possibility but I think her time line is off (was she notted?)
Alice Brady: love her for this but I am OK if it is wrong
Claire Trevor: worked too long
Jo van fleet: notted (?)
Gale Sondergaard: worked way too long
Faye Bainter: worked too long
Anne Revere: worked to long
Teresa Wright: worked too long
Twisted, where are ya?
Yes I am still here...off and on...should be going to get 40 winks soon... ;)
Gossip...yeah, looks like AB is really the only one. But there's gonna hafta be a LOT of explaining!! I'm looking forward to reading the whole sordid story. ;)
Me too! I cannot wait until Wednesday.
Nope...I haven't. Not sure why you think I have.
Thanks for the info...I looked there just now but can't find it. Not sure I even *want* to see it, anyway...ah well.
Please dont argue about the guessing on other sites.
We had Shimmy too. Shimmy was probably mentioned on those sites because of the same reason we mentioned her. we all did the same thing: we posted the entire list of awards winners, then analized and discarded them one by one. Bringing them back in is another story. :-)
ent never said the pair was correctly guessed.
for sure we were very close at one moment. maybe we named Timmy too. Maybe, because he was B list, and that 50-70 years ago.
the reason why we dont figure this out easily is that we dont have any relation (in terms of gossip) to that times. There is no bell ringing, no matter how the clues are. If ent gives us the usual clues - kinda easy hints to get us on the way, this would be not enough in this case because we dont have the todays complex knowledge wich would produce a good guess by the slightest new clue.
Ok-I'm a blog virgin AND a CDN lurker. my mom, born in 1914, worked in Hollywood as a stunt double in the 20's ( she was an aerialist )and also worked the Pilgrimage Play (an outdoor theatre across from the Hollywood Bowl) with a young Eve Arden ( her real name was Eunice Quedens..)my mom always spoke of her as a classy funny young woman...I'm sure she's not shimmytimmy. my mom died a couple of years ago...she would have LOVED figuring this out..she had great stories of her own...but nothing like the ones that have been coming out due to ENT giving this story to us. Thanks...Wednesday is close and yet soooooo far.
Dahling feel free to share some of your mum's stories - I bet they are great!
So I just read all the comments after coming home from work and even if this whole thing is a hoax i don't care. It's been amazing reading about all these characters and the crazy lives they had.
Someone mentioned a Barrymore - I discounted that one because I thought that family has been pretty open about their skeletons/demons but at this point in time I'm thinking it could be anyone.
If it's not AB then one of my other favourites is Kim Hunter. I like the idea that Shimmy could still do occasional work with bad skin by doing Radio shows and appearing in Planet of the apes as one of the apes. That would still leave time for Timmy and his theatre work!
I think we've got to accept that there are lots of ways to interpret ENT's clues and so there is room to move when considering people. I find it hard to believe that Shimmy no longer exsisted at all after leaving Hollywood. Surely she would have had at least a few job offers here and there? Although I guess Kevin Spacey might disagree...
Thanks, Calla, for gathering up the guesses from the other sites.
So it sort of looks like it's down to Alice Brady versus Margaret Rutherford, and most of you want to toss out Margaret.
I still want to know why, if Shimmy wins an Oscar, ENT doesn't just say Oscar. Why call it something like the big one with all the television viewers? That seems like such an obvious way of saying, "It's NOT the Oscar." Yet it's an award-winning FILM, not SHOW.
If Timmy shows up in Hollywood around 1930, how does he manage to become Alice Brady by 1933 when Alice makes her first talkie? Or does the big switcheroo happen around 1935-36 after Alice has made a lot of early talkies? (That's the danger point. A lot of studio people would have to notice that this just isn't the same person showing up for work now.)
What in the world does Noah's Ark have to do with Alice Brady? I can understand all the water to put out the Chicago Fire, but Noah's Ark?????
And I still have a problem with the idea that musicals were STILL popular when Timmy hit town. If he hits town in 1930, musicals are just struggling to find their footing. "Musicals have become popular" would be the way to phrase it for 1930-1935. The idea of musicals still being popular would have to put it into the late '40s and '50s.
I still think "Topeka to Broadway" might mean that Timmy is in the big production number "Atcheson, Tokeka, and Santa Fe" of "The Harvey Girls."
Did everyone notice that one of Alice's talkies was called "Go West, Young Man"? What a great clue that would be for this story! And "Broadway to Hollywood" is also a great title.
Are we going to get Monday and Tuesday "not"s and/or clues? Or do we have to wait until Wednesday night for the next message? (after which we will spend days, if not weeks, denouncing the clues as being misleading and wrong and impossible to support the final answer?
Hey Mandjo! I was working on a power point presentation for a client all weekend and hopped online this morning to catch up, but I see a lot of people going back to ignoring the key clues of the blind, so it looks like we're going in circles.
You'd think the more clues we got the closer we'd get to the answer, but.....no....
I'll try to catch up with all the comments later.
oklahoma.1234 said...
What in the world does Noah's Ark have to do with Alice Brady? I can understand all the water to put out the Chicago Fire, but Noah's Ark?????
Per EL: #1 Think water when you are thinking of Noah's Ark.
Posters have interpreted this to be in reference to the flood of 1938 which postponed the Oscars that year.
....And 1938 is the year that Alice Brady was awarded the Oscar for Best Supporting Actress
I agree that we are running round in circles but I can find nobody who fits any part of the original story.
As ENT says this is going to be long post to explain (ie not just ? is ?) I think now that people are trying to 'interpet' his comments differently.
I believe after my own investigations that this is not just a case of Shimmy working on Broadway, breaking into film, winning a major film award and then dissapearing for ever. It can't be.
Ent is going to come at the end of this and say - when i said the very big award I actually meant a gold medal at the olympics and Timmy was a dog or something equally ridiculous.
melster said...
,,,going to come at the end of this and say - when i said the very big award I actually meant a gold medal at the olympics and Timmy was a dog or something equally ridiculous.
...and the skin condition was mange.
All nine Lassies have been male, playing a female character
Someone way upthread mentioned this point, and I don't think we've addressed it enough.
ENT makes it sound like Timmy goes off to create a brand-new female persona all his own, not just one that can step in and assume the identity of an existing star like Alice Brady or Margaret Rutherford, both of whom have already done filmwork.
It sounds like his screentest is as a new and different actress and he immediately gets good supporting roles as this new actress, not as Alice or Margaret.
How are we going to reconcile this problem?
I firmly believe that Shimmy was created by Timmy. Timmy could not possibly have taken over for some established actress.
(And I've mentioned that screen test like five times! :p )
I agree with Oklahoma...it does sound like its a new person who makes it big as soon as they get to Hollywood...but then again Ent could have worded it that way to make it harder...Wednesday can't come quickly enough!!!
oops...I'll answer my own question.
This is what ENT actually says:
"From his very first screen test as a woman, Timmy was destined to become a star."
He was destined to become a new version of an existing star, not he was destined to become a new star in his own right.
(And the specific star he was destined to become was Alice Brady.)
So maybe they tested Timmy and realized he was the inevitable choice to become the new Alice Brady, who was sick and in seclusion somewhere.
OK, so now I'm back on the Brady Boat...or the Brady Ark as the case may be.
I agree with oklahoma1234's theory. Timmy must have been a stand-in for an existing star like Alice Brady who had medical issues.
I have a fiance who is tall (6'3") but very "slight" - he weighs about 150 pounds (marathon runner.) His bones and everything stick out.
However, his Adam's Apple is NOT visible. It can be easily felt, but when you're just looking at his neck you can't see it. The cords in his neck stick out and there is a hollow where his collarbones meet, just like mine.
So something to keep in mind. An Adam's Apple may not always be apparent.
That would certainly explain the discrepancy between her NY Times obituary, which cited her cause of death as a "long" battle with cancer, and her biography which says she died quickly of a "virulent" (and suspiciously unnamed!) cancer and the Hedda Hopper interview a few months before her death wherein she said Alice looked "better than [she] had ever seen her."
Real Alice did have a drawn-out battle with cancer. Fake Alice needed to give up the charade before real Alice died and before it got too difficult to maintain.
She may not fit everything, but I think the clues point most strongly to her:
Noah's Ark (flood): '38 flood postponing the cermony at which Alice won.
Noah's Ark (two of each): One Oscar gets accepted/taken away by an unidentified man (Timmy!), another is given to real Alice some twelve days later.
Water?!?!!?!
It's got to be Esther Williams.
If that's the truth, it's very unfair--that's not what the blind item hints at.
The blind item hints that Timmy is inspired to act as a woman and creates his own persona. It says nothing about some committee or something going on a search for a stand in. Not fair blind-item play.
And as far as the stand-in theory goes, the cost and risk of it would outweigh any savings. Alice Brady and Margaret Rutherford were character actresses. Recasting their roles would be cheaper than underwriting a scheme like this.
I also don't buy that Alice's salary would be sufficient to support her through her illness, support Timmy, pay off anyone who was a part of the scam, and underwrite her father's business enterprises.
I mean if a switch is the truth, it's not fair to the readers.
I think someone upthread already said that if Esther Williams is Timmy, he's got some incredible tuck-and-hide technique.
Some drag queens actually tuck it back INTO their bodies, like horses.
Not that it's Esther Williams :p
Maybe they just tuck the balls in, though, because I can't imagine tucking the penis in. Then again, I am a girl.
I think - but I'm not a boy so don't quote me on this - there's some sort of spot where they can tuck the balls back in and then, if it's long enough to be a problem, they can tuck the penis between their legs where the balls would normally be.
Still, seems difficult.
Seems like a lot of work! I know there are holes where the balls descend so they can tuck em back up in there, but eww. I would worry about them getting stuck.
Let's assume that Shimmy is not a swimsuit model.
Drag queens ice their genitals, and then tuck them. And you would never, ever know- even in a swimsuit. Believe me.... it's totally possible.
So that's how they do it!
I am a female that used to MC drag shows for a friend of mine. He 'tucked', but never anywhere other than between his legs! Everything is just tucked backwards REALLY tightly and smoothed flat and then a really tight pair of panties, girdle and pantyhose (for him and he was super thin and well endowed). Let's just say we didn't have any secrets between the two of us. I don't know who would or could tuck into another orifice! Sounds painful and uncomfortable to me.
Look how 'low' we are all stooping now - LOL
First it was adams apples
Then hands and feet
Elbows
...and now genitals.
I seriously can't go back through the old photos looking for 'tuckers' !!
Camel toe or no? If there isn't visible camel toe, then it's obviously a man tucking.
Cannot wait for new clues.
"melster said...
Look how 'low' we are all stooping now - LOL
First it was adams apples
Then hands and feet
Elbows
...and now genitals."
And let's not forget the moobs disease or the saggy tit wrinkles.
I cannot get on the AB train, if Timmy had to screen test to be "approved" to take over as AB, how did this knowledge stay with only 10 people? You've got the camera people that filmed the test, wardrobe and makeup, the executive(s) that loved the test, the roommates, William Brady, the A-lister and who knows who else? If he was taking over for someone with an existing history, supposedly with the approval of her father, why did the stress of maintaining a background cause him to break out in hives? How can he take over for AB when musicals "which were still fairly popular" if the 30's was when musicals were still new?
Too many holes for me.
Thanks for saying that, Sister! The EZ Board turns me off, can't quite put my finger on it, but it feels like I've entered a sorority house with lots of judgement flying around.
k
This is ENT's actual quote:
"Timmy worked often, but nothing more than a few lines here or there and spent a great deal of time in the "chorus" sections of musicals which were still fairly popular."
If he had put a comma after "musicals," then it would refer to all musicals, any musicals. But because there is no comma after "musicals," it's hard to figure out what he's talking about. One certain type of musical? Someone upthread mentioned the big busy chorus sections of musicals like the Busby Berkeley ones, as opposed to a musical like "Singin' in the Rain," which doesn't have a big lavish choreographed chorus singing and dancing.
And now that I see the word "fairly" in front of "popular," that would indicate that musicals as a genre are already in a state of decline in popularity, but the audience is still interested enough in some of them to continue making this type of big musical. (Like "My Fair Lady" or "Hello, Dolly" as opposed to "Sound of Music.") To me, that seems more like Timmy is doing bit and chorus work in the 1960s than in the 1930s.
K, I can see that comparison. I just don't view it as EL's house over there and it's too transparent for me. Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that way!
K and Mandjo, I just deleted my comment because I don't want my email address floating around among some of the morons that act like they're nine.
lemonpizza - I totally agree. I can't agree with AB but I can't think of anyone else it could be, either, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
Anyway, has anyone looked into the tantalizing possibility that we are talking about child actors here rather than adults?
Timmy hits adolescence, gets skin problems, and wants nothing to do with being a girl anymore. So he starts working on Broadway as a young man as a fresh new person.
I can imagine a stage mother who let her boy play a girl's part one night, out of necessity, and realized that her son would make a pretty, shining, girl.
Someone mentioned there were separate awards for kids back in the day. Out of the mountain of comments, I can't find it again.
I've never liked the AB guess. Someone would have blown that open long ago.
But the gossips of the time wouldn't have looked at a child actor with suspicion. The biography of a kid can be easily faked, as well, no questions asked.
Someone mentioned Diana Durbin, but Timmy/Shimmy might have been even younger than Durbin when she quit Hollywood.
I really like this idea.
k
Ugh, I think the idea of it being a child actor is fairly ridiculous. No offense.
They were talking about the on the EZBoard and I just couldn't buy it. Especially since Timmy's performance as Shimmy was fueled by love.
And "a gay MAN" was mentioned as receiving the award. Not a gay little boy.
Damn! Forgot that part about love. Yeah, that makes it all a little gross.
Still, I like how much easier a kid could pull this off.
A kid could probably easily pull off such a deception, but it just doesn't fit with this set of clues.
Anne Baxter's imdb bio fits some of the original BI clues (including a reference to "meaty" roles she began to get upon a second attempt to make it in Hollywood after going back to stage work for 2 years).
I'd originally excluded her because of her high profile family (she's the granddaughter of Frank Lloyd Wright).
But I'm still convinced that Timmy was a temp who filled in for an actress for all or part of a movie, and I wonder if that movie wasn't Razor's Edge.
Yes, Anne Baxter worked for years after her win, and was even nominated a few years later for All About Eve.
But if Timmy was a sub for the real Baxter, "she" would be listed in imdb as a different "actress" who did not work for many years after the win.
I can see why the reveal is going to be long and involved - there is no easy explanation for how this could have occurred.
I don't understand how Timmy being a temp who takes over someone else's role would fit with the clues given by EL.
dimes said...
I'd originally excluded her because of her high profile family (she's the granddaughter of Frank Lloyd Wright
You know how posters were finding "man hands" everywhere? I was reading bios and thinking FAKE FAKE FAKE. If you are going to make up a background, why not go full on and invent a wealthy family, illustrious ancestors, and finishing schools in Switzerland! LOL at self. I'm getting paranoid.
My theory is that Timmy (not a star, a bit player with a good singing voice and oh yeah, a man who decided to become an actress because his physical appearance precluded his becoming a matinee idol as a man) found some success as an actress, to the point of being cast in a lead in some movie opposite a closeted actor who served as a muse.
The original BI says, Shortly after Timmy was cast as the lead, he was cast in another role which is the subject of the blind. Timmy was incredible in this role and whether his acting was as a result of his new found love or as a result of just the right part at the right time, Hollywood took notice and so did the critics.
He was cast in another role, the subject of the blind. Was he cast as his own female persona, or as a substitute for an actress he could be made to resemble but who for whatever reason was unable to perform?
And then he won, and accepted the award still in character as the name actress.
He was unable to continue impersonating the actress (assuming there would be a need to do so) because the stress caused a debilitating skin condition.
He couldn't go back to being the actress persona he'd originally chosen because it would be too coincidental that two actresses had the same skin condition.
So he went back to being a man and continued his career in theater.
The name actress (who never did have a skin condition) may have resumed her own career for a few more years.
I know, it sounds convoluted, but it's as good a ridiculous theory as any of 'em!
I vote for dimes' theory (even though I still really want it to be Pier Angeli/Marisa Pavan - and yes, I know it's not).
I must be the only one left who still thinks that Timmy created Shimmy and that's that.
I'm just not creative enough to come up with my own theory, so if someone has a good one, I latch onto it. But given that Shimmy made up his/her bio, it really could be that he created Shimmy and that he didn't fill in for someone. I'll believe almost anything at this point.
Ana
You're not the only one :)
Oklahoma 1234,
"Oklahoma" had a large chorus (James Mitchell was "Dream Curly"). Same with "Oliver."
I just don’t think that a man could create an actress persona that would withstand the kind of publicity and fame that surrounded Academy Award winners even back then, and be able to maintain that deception for an extended period of time - years - without more people becoming aware of it.
It’s too good a piece of gossip to keep quiet about – I mean, look at us decades later!
Can you imagine what it would have been like back in the day, when people would have been able to get up close and personal to check out the whispers?
With all the scandal that shows up in the memoirs of the players from those days, I think someone would have made reference to it. For the story to have remained so far on the downlow, it would have had to be known to only a few people which leads me to believe it was a temporary situation.
I wonder if the Noah's Ark & water comment isn't a way of saying "Don't overlook the obvious," rather than a direction to look literally for water.
Gale Sondergaard bit of interesting trivia: she was originally cast as the Wicked Witch in The Wizard of Oz, because the original conception was of a sexy witch. When the producers decided to go with ugly instead, Sondergaard was given ugly make-up, and some costume stills were taken. After she saw then, she quit the picture, because she didn't want to be made ugly. She claimed she never regretted this. Of course, she didn't at the time know she was quitting one of the most popular films ever, because the common wisdom then was that the film would flop, mostly based on how badly Paramount's Alice in Wonderland had flopped a few years before.
She didn't want to be made ugly? That just sounds so drag queen....
Has anybody posted this from ENT ?
It is also just 48 hours until the Timmy reveal. I will give one last hint this evening at some point. Probably about halftime of the football game. No hints tomorrow on Timmy.
What sort of time is that likely to be (non US here).
Melster, the game begins at 8:30 Eastern Time. It'll go to about 11:30 ET or so, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong, football fanatics).
The game is at 5:30pm Pacific - so halftime would be around 7:00ish Pacific - 10:00pm Eastern
Thanks guys - I guess I will have to wait till the morning for the final clue. Don't fancy that late a night 22:18 here now.
Holy Batballs,
How low can we go?
Desperation is a terrible thing . . . LOL
When I picture the Ark I think animals, pier and flood in that order. Otherwise its just a boat in the water or a boat with animals.
I'm hoping that he NOTS Alice Brady so that the last 48 hours can be spent on something more meaningful. If he doesn't I will assume it is her with a bunch of clues that don't make sense.
the part about musicals being fairly popular must refer to chorus sections because that make sense grammatically (Oklahoma, ur right about where the comma goes determining it...sorry, I studied grammar lol)
Also, I really dont think it is AB since the BI states that Timmy was there when he won the award. The whole guy accepting the award for AB would have caused the cover to be blown if it was Timmy; if he could pass for her on screen, then someone would have noticed the resemblance. I hope Ent "nots" her!!
melster said...
ON SURVIVOR SUCKS DIRE POTATOE SAYS........
Jesus what a bunch of fucking idiots.
I think in my feverish mind I said something about having more faith in the public's ability to research and come up with logical thoughts.
Scratch that all to hell...
That fucking CDN comment site and the EZ board ... I mean, what community college are these brainiacs from?
OH LET US ALL BOW DOWN TO THE GREATER KNOWLEDGE OF DIRE POTATOE.
TOSSER !!
Melster you missed another comment the tool known as dire potatoe made:
Someone great (not those lousy posters on CDAN, someone nearer and dearer to us) had a great idea
So why the fuck is the prick hanging around here? To impress people? Isn't he the one who said that one picture from the first Timmy post was from Miss Liberty which was wrong?
I hate old queens who take themselves seriously dont you?
Delco Dave, yes the water/flood was definitely a big part of the AB discussion previously.
Is it possible this is going to turn out to be Pal, the male dog who played Lassie, or something like this?
No ana, you aren't alone. I don't think that Timmy could have taken over for an established actress. How could he get away with it, with so many people knowing AB up close and personal? No technicians or wardrobe people would notice this is a new AB?
Impossible, I'm sorry. Hundreds of people would have to keep that secret, not just 10.
That's why I favoured Kay Kendall, and still do over AB, though she doesn't really fit either.
I don't think the award is an Oscar either.
k
Some time back, ENT said that one site made the correct Shimmy choice. Apparently, that site offered up only one name, and it was the correct one. He even called it their "official" choice.
Does anyone have any idea what that site was that proposed only one name?
It must have been a blog controlled by just one person with no input from the readers. (Otherwise, it would have been like this one---flooded with dozens of names ranging from Joan Crawford to Lassie.)
If we could find that one site with just one name, we would have our answer, don't ya think?
he said their official guess was wrong...it was Blind Item Collective and their guess was KK
8/30/07--#6 The post was reposted on several sites and was guessed correctly on at least 3 of them. I won't say if anyone has guessed correctly on my site.
basically, through the thousands of comments on here and other sites that picked up the BI, someone got it(on 3 of them and possibly here) He then said one site made an official guess and it was incorrect. Out of all the comments, someone got it but we were disregarding it.
Five bucks says ENT's next post reads as follows: Sorry guys, Shimmy is NOT Alice Brady.
That would be my luck.
What about the idea that Shimmy showed people something that had not been seen before? Although this sounds vaguely sexual, it probably refers to some technical innovation. I keep thinking of Fay Wray, who was in Mystery of the Wax Museum, a very early color film, and King Kong, one of the first big special effects spectaculars. I don't think it's actually Fay Wray, but who else has been in films that were technically innovative?
Also, would this have been more plausible if Shimmy worked in the 60s, when the female ideal was more boyish, than in the 40s or 50s, when big breasts and hips were in fashion?
Molly, what a nice guy. Shame he can't say that on here, instead of another website entirely. Cowardly loser.
OK, here's another name: Matthew Beard. He played "Stymie" in the Our Gang comedies. I looked for actors who died of AIDS, and basically, before Rock Hudson, there are no actors with "AIDS" as an official cause of death. So I started looking for people who died of common AIDS-related diseases, like pneumonia. Matthew Beard died of pneumonia in 1981.
He was extrodinarily prolific from his childhood through 1947, had one appearance in 1953, and not another until 1974, when he suddenly began making numerous TV appearances. The official explanation is heroin addiction.
He was black, so this isn't too likely, because no black actresses other than Hattie McDaniel won anything in the critical time period.
I'm still looking for possible AIDS-related deaths 1980-85 that were listed as something else.
Oklahoma was filmed in Todd AO which was new technology.
I notice Rod Steiger was in the cast, and he stood up for a cross dresser on one of his other films.
I did come across various Shimmies, just not ones that won awards or matched clues.
I just re-read the original Timmy bi and realized how much his life sucked!
His talents were turned down and went unrecognized.
He had to dress and act as a female in order to win a role.
Then he wins an award AS A lady and not himself.
Thinking he may be successful as a male again, he gets out of drag.
But unfortunately, he's not liked again!
While other gay actors are open about their lifestyles, Timmy's boyfriend wants their relationship to remain in the closet.
Poor Timmy!
I am off the Alice Brady bandwagon...
Some reasons, after hours of research:
1.) AB was a STAR of the silent film era. On imdb, if you check her silent era resume, almost all her roles were lead actress. She worked with thousands of people during this time, some of which in films both before her departure and after her return. She even worked with many of the same people for example:
virginia hammond who was in both "Lady Tubbs" (1935) and "The World To Live In" (1919).
I find it near impossible to believe that anybody, no matter how much they looked like a former star could fool so many people for so long. Producers, directors, crew, cast, media, fans all knew AB. To think someone could swoop in and work with or even converse with the same people she did prior to her lengthy absence, seems a little far fetched.
2.) ENT says that "Timmy provided information and it wasn't as easy to check on stories and timelines for reporters then.... The story Timmy gave is the one still in use."
AB's Bio is very easy to check on now, and there is nothing about it, whether it be timelines or family or death that is vague.
Both her mother and father were prominent theater/film figures and there is plenty of verifiable info on them. She was married to James Crane, a real person, and had a son Donald. She died. There is a 1939 news article with her obituary:
http://cdsun.library.cornell.edu/collect/y193940/index/assoc/D24.dir/doc39.pdf
3.)ENT says "Timmy was initially given meaty supporting roles.." But if you look on imdb at the roles she was given upon her return in 1933, 3 of the 5 films she made in that year were starring roles, not supporting. And she continued this trend throughout her career.
4.)ENT says "he saw his career slowly work its way back down the ladder over the course of three or four years". AB died in 1939, one year after recieving the academy award.
5.) "Timmy" left Hollywood for 2 years, then came back as a "Shimmy". AB left Hollywood for 10 years. And during that time her broadway performances are very well documented. So when did "Timmy" change his name and adopt the "Shimmy" persona? Was it while the real AB was performing, or did she hand off her persona to him one night during some crazy game of poker and go into the underground with the A-team...
Anyway, for the record, I guess somehow this could all be explained with some superlong, convoluted, sordid tale, which apparently according to ENT is involved in the explanation.
But I do think that people are trying so hard to make a connection that they are ignoring multiple inconsistencies for the sake of finding a fit.
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