Timmy Weekend Update
#1-To the best of my knowledge there is no book deal or anything like it. If there is, I'm not getting any money from it. I think it would make a great book and movie, but I think there is more potential for a movie with Gift Clement.
#2 It's not a simple answer. When I reveal it will be a long post explaining everything.
#3 Shimmy is NOT
Hattie McDaniel
Edith Evans
Josephine Hull
#4 Timmy was a very good singer. He was not A list. William Haines was a mentor to him. Katharine Hepburn adored Timmy.
This has nothing to do with Timmy, but just an observation. This site generally gets between 2M-3M hits a month and that's great. I'm perfectly happy with that and don't want to get much higher because then it would be much harder to fly under the radar. That monthly number translates into about 100,000 hits a day and about 50,000 unique visitors. It never really varies up or down much except on the weekends. Even with Timmy/Shimmy the comments increased, but not the number of people coming to the site.
Since the Vanessa Hudgens nude photo scandal, this site has been getting 200,000 hits an HOUR. Is seeing an 18 year old girl naked that exciting? At what point in the world has everyone seen the photo? If I get 3M people a day looking at it and all the other sites who have her photo get 3M hits a day at what point do you reach the population of the world?
The surreal thing about it also is that none of those 200,000 people an hour looking at her photo have any idea what the rest of the site is about. They are just following a link. They have no idea about Timmy/Shimmy or anything else. It's a very odd kind of feeling. It's like the rest of us are living in a separate world.
I just wish that those numbers of people could be turned into something more positive than looking at some really bad photo of someone barely B list. It seems like such a waste, so if anyone has any ideas, I'm open to putting a link, and idea, a charity, or anything on that naked photo post which would at least present the opportunity for something positive.
940 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 801 – 940 of 940Rachel, I know, I am the original poster of that picture but I don't see the resemblence.
oops... misspell, previous post, instead of "the guy a bit father" should have been "the guy a bit fatTer"
OT but as long as we're talking about old Hollywood..Jane Wyman has died.
http://ap.google.com/article/
ALeqM5iDO4jv8SrNOuZzxRTxPYXq6zm_ug
I thought she was one of the prettiest women of her time.
Thanks for the info Cheno.
StandingBear,
I agree 100% that if it's not AB (or KK for that matter), that we really missed the boat by limiting ourselves to straight Oscar/GG Best (Supporting) Actress awards. The blind is written as if Timmy brought a unique perspective to a performance.
I REALLY need some new hints to get me going again...getting burned out. OR, just tell us already.
For the record, there's nothing in the bridge-playing scene in Sunset Blvd that looked pertinent to me.
The SB script is online here - most of the dialogue is a voiceover by William Holden's character.
http://sfy.ru/sfy.html?script=sunset_boulevard
I always liked Jane Wyman.
Direpotatoe, if that's the case then I think we only missed the boat because we were misled with the hints. I hope that's not the case!
OBJECTION! Your honor, the prosecution is misleading the jury!
OT
RIP Jane Wyman. She was just SO pretty. Total class.
About that Miss Liberty pic. I started posting on the huge thread and it seems like someone had a link to that picture on that thread.
I could have sworn that it showed the name of the theater in which it was played too. I went back yesterday to look but didn't make it half way through before I had to quit.
Does anyone else remember seeing the name of the theater? There's been so much research at this point I don't know what I have and haven't looked at and what I am confusing for something else.
That is sad about JW.
I used to love Falcon Crest.
I never understood why she married The Gipper though
Greetings---long time lurker here, but I had to post because I find this piece incredibly interesting plus I am totally in awe with all the work done by all of these very clever people.
Just a quick thought that I don't think has been posted yet, if it has, please accept my apologies.
Concerning the reference to Topeka--there is a theater still operating there called the Topeka Civic Theater that dates back to 1936. They have a listing on line of all productions by title, but do not list the actors. Someone more knowledgable may be able to see something in it. Just a thought and thanks again
Was it the Imperial Theatre in New York?
I'm afraid I was the one (or one of the first, I think) to ID the pic as from "Miss Liberty." I ID'd it based on a friend of mine who *swore* it was from that musical.
I tried for days online to find the pic for a confirmation and never found it.
I haven't seen it positively proven anywhere.
It's a really ravelly loose end...
So if the theatre is The Imperial in NYC..
Maybe I am reaching but...
"Equitable joined with a production company founded by the Shubert Theatrical Company, managed by Broadway producer William A. Brady"
I need to find out when Shubert bought the property.
Jusshopn, are you sure it was that picture that had the name of the theater? I recall one of the photo's posted yesterday that had the guy Furley whatever in the pic and I think the name of a theater was in the background.
Bob, welcome! I posted a link to all of those old shows on their site a while ago but nothing seemed to come of it. Please don't hurry off, we need all the help we can get!!
Direpotatoe, I've been looking for something to validate (or not) that photo said you posted that it was from Miss Liberty and I haven't found a thing either.
All of you with theater backgrounds, are there any forums we can post that photo in and ask for help in identifying it?
Hey Rocky - I count Hez as a personal friend of mine, so just to let you know, she's been swamped with her new gig. Also, she is not the author of this blog, as she has shared a few things with me to prove same. I can't share them with you, you'll just have to take my word for it. Or not, it's up to you.
Don't know why my posts aren't showing up but I'll repost the last 2 as 1:
I don't think that pic is from "Miss Liberty" as the costumes are not the correct period for that show. I think it's more likely some other Irving Berlin or Rodgers & Hart show set in a more contemporary time.
As for the Imperial Theatre, it has been a Shubert venue since it was built in 1923.
Please forgive me if this has alreay been posted, however, there is a Withernsea Lighthouse Museum Trust and Kay Kendall Memorial in Withernsea Yorkshire England, which apparently contains many photos of KK as a child.
Too much verifiable, documented information on her background for her to be Timmy, that's all I'm saying.
http://www.britinfo.net/T/1017039.htm
Rocky- since Pinky replied, I had to go and see what you said. And I agree with you.
I know Anna Magnani was discounted but she does have a scar on her right forearm near the elbow. The scar is very visible in The Rose Tattoo. I have to admit I'm not familiar with Italian cinema.
Okay, I've been hung up on this "multiple awards for one role" line in the original BI and Anna Magnani was literally the only person that didn't check out for me from further investigation. I cross referenced oscars v. GG's and though nothing is saying that shimmy won both those awards exclusively, I thought it was a good starting point. Anna Magnani won not only those two for her role in "the rose tattoo" but also a national board of review award and a NY film critics award. per her wiki entry, she worked in italian theatre as well. was also described as "she lacked the conventional beauty and glamour... Slightly plump and rather short in stature with a face framed by unkempt raven hair and eyes encircled by deep, dark shadows..."
haven't really dug much deeper with her but something to think about, I guess.
Cheno---your posts showed up on a different BI thread. FYI.
Is anyone else's computer crashing? Seriously, I'm afraid mine is doomed because I've been clicking on all these links...
Also, "How kola" is "Hi friend" in Sioux and I meant to say that at the end of my last post so I hope none of you thought I was cursing at you all...
Anyway, one more random thought before my computer dies again:
The only REAL clues ENT gave us were Timmy's date of death (1980-85) and the "scar". IF HE EVER REVEALS THIS BLIND (notice how skeptical I am?), these are the only two concrete "facts" that we could check against his reveal and call foul if he messed them up.
The multiple awards thing I think can be easily dissembled by him -- I mean, IMDB lists the Walk of Fame Stars as "awards" for crying out loud. AND, I'd be mighty pissed if the award with all the TV viewers turns out to be a write-in contest from TV Guide, know what I'm saying?
Anyway, on with the hunt....
(oh, and direpotatoe, I'm sorry I missed the "e" at the end of your name in a previous post)
thanks VOR..don't know how that happened..have deleted them from the other thread..
StandingBear said:
"The multiple awards thing I think can be easily dissembled by him -- I mean, IMDB lists the Walk of Fame Stars as "awards" for crying out loud. AND, I'd be mighty pissed if the award with all the TV viewers turns out to be a write-in contest from TV Guide, know what I'm saying?"
That I would doubt as the only awards that I know of that are BIG awards that use Best Actress/Best Supporting Actress categories are the Oscars, GGs and the Emmys.
If it turns out that Walk of Fame counts, I'm going back to Vera-Ellen!
Eve said...
"If it turns out that Walk of Fame counts, I'm going back to Vera-Ellen!"
I don't think it would..as the multiple awards were for one role..not the overall body of work.
I know. Just a little gallows humor. I wonder if Ent knows how much this BI has taken over all of our lives? :)
K
With regard to AM, I was suggesting Marisa Pavan some time ago. She's the one who accepted AM's award. I think her background could be faked, and she is not reported to be deceased.
ChenoFan,
I see what you're saying but my point was that the only specific "facts" ENT put in the BI that could be verified are the death date and scar. The "awards" that Shimmy won could be explained as a Walk of Fame Star, a Photoplay Magazine award, some other random "award" of the time AND the "big" award as Best Actress/Best Supporting Actress.
In the original BI, I think ENT says something like "this is about one award for one role" so conceivably that could be the AA/GG -- it doesn't mean all the other "awards" ENT referenced had to be on that scale or even for that role.
See, I'm interested in parsing the BI because I think enough ambiguity is written into it so that, once ENT reveals Timmy/Shimmy, he can backtrack on almost everything EXCEPT for the death date & scar. That line about "this is about one role and one award" has perplexed me from the start because, really, what does that mean?
So, all I'm saying is that, for those of us looking for a string of high visibility awards surrounding this "one role" may be on a wild goose chase.
Eve said:
"I wonder if Ent knows how much this BI has taken over all of our lives? :)"
Seriously..LOL. This has been me the past week or so:
"Ugh 2AM..must go to bed"
(Upon awakening) "Must see if there are new clues or posts."
Rinse, repeat..and a new chair potato has been born.
Great find on Topeka Civic Theater, but 1936 may be too late to find either Timmy or Shimmy. The actress already was famous in the 1930s, according to "The Secrets of Mabel Eastlake."
It might be Alice Brady, after all. Especially the second Alice Brady.
Cheno,
With respect to anybody I was thinking of, the one role was outstanding. Ma Kettle, Auntie Mame,
of those two roles mentioned, the only one that was multiple award winning was "Auntie Mame" but Russell had far to long a career to be Timmy.
Has anyone considered Robert Moore for Timmy?
Photo:
http://users.rcn.com/robertwmoore/images/Fred.jpg
Date of Birth
7 August 1927, Detroit, Michigan, USA
Date of Death
10 May 1984, New York City, New York, USA. (pneumonia)
Trivia
Was nominated for Broadway's Tony Award five times: as Best Director (Musical), in 1969 for "Promises, Promises;" in 1979 for "They're Playing Our Song;" and in 1981 for "Woman of the Year;" as Best Director (Dramatic), in 1970 for "Last of the Red Hot Lovers;" and as Best Director (Play), in 1978 for "Deathtrap." He never won.
What I found curious is there isn't any info on him before the age of 43. So he could have been doing bit parts prior to that which are OFTEN not always absent from IMBD.
I have been researching actors that died form possible aids related complications in the 1980's.
I think I just pasted a link to a picture of Fred Astaire instead of
Robert Moore. I thought that guy looked familiar. OOPS
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-vn3805200-v&imgrefurl=http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-vn3805200&h=600&w=465&sz=40&hl=en&start=78&sig2=ST7nZCx95bu-spMnWH5Bdg&tbnid=3gPaXuFq91MTZM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=105&ei=C5nlRqn_AZSCjAHlrYmCDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Drobert%2Bmoore%26start%3D60%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DRNWE,RNWE:2005-46,RNWE:en%26sa%3DN
There is no way I can even keep up with these comments! Job well done all!! So I'm not sure if this has been covered .....
But if they gave SAG awards every month all those years ago could these be the awards that Shimmy won repeatedly? I haven't seen anyone expand on that.
Just trying to help. This is great entertainment - until it wakes me at night!
that may or may not be the same Robert Moore...that was an Australian prod of "Oklahoma"
_-_=_ where the heck have ya been? We need to pick your brain here.
I don't recall seeing anyone bring that up before. So they gave monthly awards? I didn't know this. Do you think they're listed anywhere?
chenofan
You are right I can't find a picture of the Robert Moore I mentioned above. It must not be him.
Back to the grind.
Sallymde, I think your find of Robert Moore is a great possibility for Timmy. The right timeframe, the right cause of death, very active in the stage---and not just as an actor, but as director, etc, acted in a few movies including the 1970 Tell Me That You Love Me, Junie Moon with Liza Minnelli...
The internet broadway database has productions listed for him, as director and performer...there is a noticeable gap between early work as performer (only credit Jenny Kissed Me 1948-1949) and then nothing until 1964 when he appeared as a standby in The Owl and the Pussycat. Those could be the Shimmy years.
http://www.ibdb.com/person.asp?ID=15693
If that photo link you posted is of him, he could pass for a woman (with a big schnozz); if it's not really him, then hopefully there is a photo out there b/c I think it's a good guess.
good afternoon from the east coast .. i must tell you that I came into work at 8 am this morning and didnt get through this comment section until 11:30 .. good job to all .. jotted down a lot of names, books and movies that I want to research .. especially kate hepburn, how interesting .. and sunset blvd is one of my all time fav movies .. so I watched it again over the weekend ... no clues that I could see .. I guess I am going on the alice "were you out with sam the butcher again?" brady train ...
please ent, i need to get some work done or my kids will be living on a diet of ramen noodles for breakfast lunch and dinner!!
Sag Lifetime award winners
1962 Eddie Cantor
1963 Stan Laurel
1965 Bob Hope
1966 Barbara Stanwyck
1967 William Gargan
1968 James Stewart
1969 Edward G. Robinson
1970 Gregory Peck
1971 Charlton Heston
1972 Frank Sinatra
1973 Martha Raye
1974 Walter Pidgeon
1975 Rosalind Russell
1976 Pearl Bailey
1977 James Cagney
1978 Edgar Bergen
1979 Katharine Hepburn
1980 Leon Ames
1982 Danny Kaye
1983 Ralph Bellamy
1984 Iggie Wolfington
1985 Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward
1986 Nanette Fabray
1987 Red Skelton
1988 Gene Kelly
1989 Jack Lemmon
1990 Brock Peters
1991 Burt Lancaster
1992 Audrey Hepburn
1993 Ricardo Montalban
1994 George Burns
1995 Robert Redford
1996 Angela Lansbury
1997 Elizabeth Taylor
1998 Kirk Douglas
1999 Sidney Poitier
2000 Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee
2001 Edward Asner
2002 Clint Eastwood
2003 Karl Malden
2004 James Garner
2005 Shirley Temple Black
2006 Julie Andrews
I found this on the SAG chronological history web page:
http://www.sag.org/history/chronos_pages/30s.html
1935: Guild granted an American Federation of Labor charter by the Associated Actors and Artistes of America (Four A's). Membership passes 5,000. Robert Montgomery succeeds Eddie Cantor as Guild President. Monthly balloting by actors on "the outstanding work of their fellows" produces first Guild Awards for the "Best Performances of the Month", results published in SAG Magazine and winners are recognized at the Guild Balls at the Biltmore Bowl and Cocoanut Grove.
Haven't been able yet to find any listings of monthly award winners, but I'll keep looking.
OK, this is going to sound crazy, but please be kind; I have read every single post since the first day, and though I'm a newbie to this board, I am as obsessed by Timmy as everyone else who's been following this...in looking for photos of Robert Moore in Tell Me That You Love Me Junie Moon, I have discovered the following:
Tell Me That You Love Me, Junie Moon and The Moon is Blue were both directed by Otto Preminger.
The film The Moon is Blue was "Banned in Kansas" (part of the advertising tag attached to it).
IF, and it's a big IF, there's a possibility that Maggie McNamara was Shimmy, could Timmy have been Robert Moore?
I still can't find a photo of him...I have a feeling I'll be renting Junie Moon soon.
I'm just trying to keep an open mind in case neither of the big theories turns out to be true. I am leaning towards the AB side b/c Kay Kendall seems to have so much documentation on her life as a woman. And there is something very intriguing about the possibility of multiple Alice's.
I just found a short bio of Robert Moore that says he became a pretty successful director (he directed The Boys in the Band on stage and some Neil Simon movies). Do you think that fits in with Ent's clues?
http://www.fandango.com/robertmoore/biographies/p103389
Something tells me this guy wasn't a director. It seems like it's too big a thing to leave out entirely.
I'll repeat my theory about Kay Kendall, for anyone who missed it. Perhaps ridiculous...
Kay was a real person, a real girl, from a real family, which is why there are pictures of her as a child. Kay became an actress mostly because of personality and charm.
Kay was killed in an auto accident about 1950, which was not reported to the police (for some reason). At that point, a relative, or another actor the family knew resembled Kay and knew had played a woman onstage, took her name and persona and became Kay Kendall, albeit with a different nose and look (which was attributed to the car accident).
After a few years, on the threat of exposure, the family told the press that Kay had died of leukemia (even though they tried to keep it from her! very odd). The actor was told that he couldn't do any more acting, but he went back to the theater and designed costumes or some related thing.
This person may have been an American who was in Hollywood earlier, as a man known by Hepburn and Haines. Or perhaps he was Haine's protegee in the 60s, as an interior designer.
I think Kay Kendall fits more of the clues than Alice Brady, though the British vs. US/Hollywood thing is difficult to logically analyze.
Eve, I just don't know...there's nothing in ENT's clues that say Timmy never directed. At first from the posting, I thought TImmy would have ended up in obscurity, but when he added the clues that Timmy was adored by Katharine Hepburn, and mentored by William Haines, it made me think that Timmy was someone who may not have been a big name star, but had a long life in the Hollywood world.
One of the movies Robert Moore directed was Neil Simon's "Murder by Death"...one of the actors in that film was David Niven, who was also in "The Moon is Blue."
Maybe all just big Hollywood coincidences, and maybe I'm completely off-base, but I just wanted to put this info out there b/c even if these specifics don't end up being Timmy/Shimmy, maybe it will lead to something else being discovered.
I've been lurking/watching throughout since almost the beginning of the BI about Timmy/Shimmy (had to go back and read the origninal BI to figure out what all the fuss was about) but I didn't have anything significant to post up until now....
I have found the last unidentifed picture!
It's a picture of the a 1940 hollywood theatre cast.
Here's the link to the actual pic:
http://www.sandiegohistory.org/collections/theaters/images/94-19326-2.jpg
and here's the the page on which that pic link is located
http://www.sandiegohistory.org/collections/theaters/theaters.htm
It's in the Hollywood Theatre section (which is somehow related to the Lyceum Theatre)
Hope this can help someone out.
I'm facinated and will stick by to see how this turns out!
ETL has posted new info/clues on the blog
Gogolala, I think it's an excellent find. I didn't mean to come off harsh. It sounds from Ent's comments today that there will be some additional mystery to uncover, so who knows what that will be! Good job though!
so the cast pic is from the Hollywood Theatre in San Diego..and further research has revealed that the theatre was a Burlesque house..so it's not from a specific musical as once thought.
If Shimmy is in that picture as a woman, then Shimmy is neither Alice Brady or Kay Kendall. Alice was "dead" by 1940, and Kay was too young.
If Timmy is in that picture as a man, then Shimmy was "realized over the next few years, which puts her career in the 40s.
Makes sense to me, though I can't imagine who it could be.
it would also make sense if that was the place Timmy took over for the 'leading lady' rather than an actual play....an act or number or 2 as opposed to an entire show..and would have been easier to keep it from the cast of the show that Timmy was substituting for the lead "actress."
Why it happened. What does EL mean when he says we shouldn't focus on how it happened but why? Why would a man act as an actress?
Because he has a high voice and can't get work as a man.
That's the only thing I can come up with, but what does this mean?
Great Find Krebel!! Is it just me, or does the fellow on the left side of the cast photo (in the black jacket and white shoes) look an awful lot like Walter Merrill?
Krebel - awesome find!!
Burlesque house? Kay Kendall had a background in Vaudeville and someone here posted (one of the guys, can't recall who) that in Vaudeville the men often played the role of the woman (just like in Shakespeare). So again, WHY this happened may be because the person started in Vaudeville and was a success and kept moving up and had no choice other than to continue the scam.
here's a pic of the guy on the left enlarged a bit
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=62oq0k0
I'm still more interested in the feminine looking man on the upper right.
So, per ENT's latest post, if we figure out WHY it (the Timmy to Shimmy transition) happened, will we know who Timmy/Shimmy is? Or is it literally just an explanation (not referred to in the original BI)?
Does figuring out WHY also solve another, undisclosed mystery? Was someone murdered (accidentally or not - and it's unresolved) and that's why Shimmy came on the scene as a woman? And the "probes" into her background after winning the award was too stressful for fear that this murder would come to light?
I swear, ENT raises more questions than he answers! Next thing you know, this will all be tied in to the Black Dahlia!!!
Twisted,
Why?
too high a voice
too short
in puberty before voice changes and beard shows up
too femme
Hiding from the war or service
4f (which we should always consider with Timmy - can't fool the army anyone with a real service past cant be him
I was listening to one of the former picks on youtube (not going to name him here to avoid backtracking) and I could not get over how much he sounded like Judy Garland. So maybe a beautiful voice that sounded more like a girl
here's the guy in the upper rh corner
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=52ckytg
Maybe Timmy accidentally murdered Alice Brady/Kay Kendall/Lassie after a tragic bridge game gone horrible wrong. Then to hide the evidence he posed as her until the guilt started causing hives.
HorribLY, because I can spell, really.
Thanks, Chenofan. Still looks very feminine to me!
Budford, all good points! I posted a while back that maybe he was just too feminine to get work as a man, but easily got work as a woman. Or it could be the Vaudeville angle. I'm curious about whatever the twist is he's talking about. One more thing to lose sleep over..lol.
Standingbear, EL didn't quite say that if we figured out the why we would discover who Timmy was. He just said we shouldn't concentrate on the how, just the why.
Here's another picture from in front of that same theater. These are supposed to all be women, but again, maybe we're looking right at Timmy? This is from when The Lyceum was being called The Liberty. It was called the Liberty Theater from 1924 until ???
http://www.sandiegohistory.org/collections/theaters/images/sensor7-152.jpg
Just thought of something else -- if the timeline coincides with anyone's guesses, could the WHY have to do with the Hollywood Blacklist?
This was my original thought regarding Shimmy's bout of hives or shingles -- "probing" into her background could refer to HUAC doing their thing (and which was one reason I thought Judy Holliday was a great guess, except for all those other details that didn't fit).
So maybe WHY has to do with WHY Shimmy gave up an award-winning career. Really, could you imagine being an obscure guy working the regional theatre route, auditioning for jobs and all the while thinking "I once won an Academy Award and now I'm reduced to this!" Whoever Timmy was, he must have had some dark, dark nights thinking about his brief shot at glory.
Great Find Krebel!!
Well this NY theater connection connects to Moss Hart of Ms. Liberty.
I have run off a pdf to read on the train.
All about the history and burlesque blah blah but it gives names.
Maybe it wasn't high class broadway that Shimmy made a name with, maybe it was burlesque.
Krebel - just wanted to say well done. I've been looking for a week and couldn't find it. You must have fell off your chair when that pic came up.
Twisted Sister -- you're right. I'm just jumping on his every word, trying to catch him at his game!!!
So, can someone guess which HOW he was referring to? There were lots of great theories floating around this past weekend.
I have always read this blog since it began but very rarely post comments. I think the WHY could have something to do with any of the following:
A) World War II
B) Homophobia
C) Crime - murder/suicide/scandal
Not much I know but I was on the KK bandwagon and now I just don't know!
Jennifer, I thought of WWII, also, but couldn't make any connection, unless he was hiding the fact that he wasn't admitted into the army because he was homosexual. I think in the old days if you were gay, you weren't in the army. And a lot of men hid that fact, but with some it was probably a little too obvious.
Very true Twisted Sis. I really want to contribute to this but my internet was down all weekend so I'm a little behind. :(
Is it just me, or does this guy give other heterosexual females the vapors? Is it hot in here?
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=6cgpdmv
:)
Jennifer, that's okay... a lot of us were checking in all weekend and we're behind, too!
Lynne, really? I don't know anything about him but based on the pose and the attire I'm guessing he may be the gayest gay who ever gayed.
I think Katharine Hepburn was accidentally killed by her brother Tom when she was 14. He then assumed her personality. "She" always used Tom's birthdate- until "she" revealed it in her biography. Their parents were known as eccentric, and their father was known for his views on sex education. She was in Sylvia Scarlet, which someone earlier (standing bear?) could have some hinting at parts with sexual ambiguity.
twisted--I know, I know, but let a girl dream!
He's not only gay, he's probably dead, too. Totally unobtainable!
Also, he has hairy arms in that picture. Timmy was follically impaired, no?
I'm catching a cold. Let's blame this school-girl crush on that.
Yeah, except that Hepburn played all her life as the woman that she was, until she died at 96 years old, a career as a woman that lasted more than 70 years.
She's braless in The Rainmaker, and you can see her boobs bouncing about (1954).
Nice try.
Lynn (Don't hurt me Twisted): I thought Merrill was good looking too. I do admit to staring at him beyond trying to see AB in his eyes. To me he has that Cary Grant like sophisticated-ness. Don't even get me started on him. I still have not recovered over finding out he was Bisexual. Rock was a blow but I can never get over Cary. Now Katherine has had an incestuous relationship with her brother. My dreams have been haunted all over this BI. Oh, and Lynn, I actually bought that pic of Merrill so he's coming home with me!
The "why" could be to get out of soldiering in WWII.
Or perhaps, simply to work through the era of the blacklist.
jusshopn,
Thanks for your sympathy (empathy, too?). You're right, he has that Cary Grant urbane sophistication, in addition to a nice set of guns. I would buy the pic, too, but then I would have some 'splainin' to do to my husband.
I curled up in a little ball when I first heard about Cary Grant. He and Wally are both so, so, yum!
I promise to make a real contribution to this thread eventually. :)
Sorry guys, not only does Merrill look GAY GAY GAY to me, but he also kind of gives me the creeps!
I am a little disappointed in ENT's comments tonight about Timmy. Sometime next week probably means Friday, so that is almost 2 weeks from today. I don't think I can handle the stress of this any longer!
Lynne wrote:
"He's not only gay, he's probably dead, too. Totally unobtainable!"
Wait a minute! Sounds like my kind of man!!!!
Jusshopn, that's okay, just consider me one less person here to fight over him.
Are we talking over here or in EL's post of today? Because there are two discussions going on which is probably not a good idea.
twisted,
I was going to post/read here until the end of my workday (Moutain time), and look back tomorrow morning in hopes that Enty will give us another "and it's not" clue.
I don't know what I will do if he doesn't give another clue. Until tomorrow, I'll pine silently over unrequited and unattainable love and such like...
a big thanks to whoever linked walter merrill's picture. since he is from my hometown,i think it would be awesome if it were him. interesting that nobody around here seems to know him nd I lookked in all the history books for the sale belt and such and I see nothing. They talk about Jayne mansfield enough though and even people who passed through town but not their own hometown boy. But again, Bangor as mostly a chuch going or slate mining town back then. hard to fit in and they fact he considered miami to be his adopted home town intrigued me. even if it can't be him, its cool that i found out about him and that he is from my hometown. i cannot wait for the big reveal, although from his latest hints, anyone wonder if we got some of it right.
Lynne:
"Until tomorrow, I'll pine silently over unrequited and unattainable love and such like..."
Oh no! NOT the and such like! Well, I hear you on the additional hint thing, Lynne. As for me, if we don't get one, I shall weep. Profusely, even!
I was thinking about the recent WHY hint.. Perhaps, (going by the 2 Alice Bradys idea) the 'first' Alice Brady had a terrible voice, (which was hidden by the fact that she acted in silent films) and thus wouldn't be able to act in a talkie.. So then Timmy was brought in to take her place? Probably not, just an idea.. Maybe I have seen 'Singin' in the Rain' too many times..
First time poster, obsessed with this Timmy mystery! I think the "Why" might be really simple...
In the original blind, Ent writes "Timmy was a gay man at a time when gay men were treated miserably, not only in Hollywood but in the rest of the country as well."
By studying up on William Haines, we've seen just poorly some were treated. If Timmy was close to Haines, he would have seen first-hand how just difficult it would be to make the transition, as a gay man, from bit parts and chorus lines to leading-man roles.
Maybe this was happening to Haines at about the same time Timmy stepped in to sub for the leading actress in the play and he realized this might be his best opportunity to make something of his love for acting. Just a thought!
I posted a comment about this on the other thread. The BI makes it sound as if Timmy had three distinct personas:
'himself'
'actress'
'closeted gay actor'.
What's does 'himself' represent, if not a closeted gay guy pretending to be hetero?
Krebel, outstanding work coming up with that photo. It made me check google's news archive for a San Diego understudy actress, which is leading in all kinds of directions I'll scope out more when I have time tonight.
Is it possible that the real Alice needed someone to act as a stand-in for her maybe just for camera sets,etc. at first due to the onset of her cancer.
Then as she got sicker this person was needed more and more.
Is it possible this person was someone who not only new Alice intimately but looked very similar to her. Is it possible that Donald, her teenage son could have stood in for his mother. With the help of a mentor and the support of a close group of loyal hollywood insiders maaybe he pulled it off. Maybe Donald collected his Mothers Oscar because she was too ill to go herself.
Just asking...
Names from article:
Claude Mathis
Janne Cafara
Lili St. Cyr
don saylor
Bob Ross
Larry Kane
Jimmy Merrill
Eddy Ware
Lee Tory
Kansas City Kitty
There was a movie made with all the real stars.
Hollywood Burleque 1949
This sounds alot like Gypsy.
OK, let me run this by you guys – sorry if someone has brought this scenario up before and I missed it.
Timmy starts out in vaudeville as a female impersonator a la Julian Eltinge, whom everyone knew was a guy playing a woman (but was presumed to be a straight guy).
He fills in for an actress and gets more acclaim as a woman than as a guy pretending to be a woman. So he goes off and ‘becomes’ a woman. Wins award, breaks out in hives, dumps the actress persona and either goes back to Female Impersonator Timmy or continues on as Closeted Actor Timmy. Three distinct personas.
Now to check vaudevillians who performed in drag – there were probably a million of them.
not really..burlesque only figures into "Gypsy" in the last 1/4 or so of the show/movie.
though the real Gypse Rose Lee also wrote a pulp mystery called 'The G-String Murders'..and there was a film made of it with Barbara Stanwyck called "Lady of Burlesque."
also of note..Gypsy Rose Lee had a son with Otto Preminger..
dimes:
don't confuse vaudeville with burlesque..they are 2 very different animals..
I posted this on the other thread by accident. reposting here.
Interesting... I got a pdf of the history of the San Diego Hollywood theatre. I haven't finished reading it all but I just came across a mention of Jimmy Merril. He was one of three lead dancers there. Any connection?
http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/v51-1/pdf/2005-1_hollywood.pdf
Here are some Vaudvillians who went on to perform in drag acts around L.A. during the Billy Haines Timeframe. I thought I'd narrow it down like that, because you're right about million of 'em doing the drag thing..
Gene (or Jean) Malin
Ray (or Rae) Bourbon
Dwight Fiske
Spivy
I don't think Timmy seriously considered doing drag. It's most probably by chance that he took the place of the lead actress for one night. Not only did he get away with it, the audience gave him an ovation w/o realizing the understudy was a guy.
Assuming up until then Timmy's career was going nowhere otherwise he wouldn't need to supplement in his income in local theatre productions. And that one performance gave him an idea that maybe he could go in another direction.
Isn't this more or less the same thing as Dustin Hoffman's character in Tootsie. Although in Tootsie no one wanted to work with DH's character. In Timmy's case, his career was going nowhere in spite of his talent, mostly singing because of "chorus section of musicals"
Ray (Rae) Bourbon died in 1971
Gene (Jean) Malin died in 1933
Madame Spivy died in 1971
and Dwight Fiske died in 1952..
Here's a resource site I just found on Femme Mimics.
Anyone look familiar to you guys?
Enter Shimmy, maybe this is where the Haines mentor came in. Maintaining the charade of Shimmy must have been no easy matter. Timmy had lots of help from some people around him, safe to guess, one of them is JJ's wife, another is the other roommate.
My guess is Shimmy was beautiful and would not very likely look like a man in drag.
I'm still on the KK bandwagon but with so much information about her, I'm beginning to have my doubts except early on ENT confirmed(?) someone guessed Shimmy correctly.
The AB/Blake guess was very plausible. Compliments to the first one who mentioned it.
Wouldn't it be funny if it's neither KK nor AB?
This is the history of the Lyceum, Liberty, Hollywood Burlesque, Off Broadway - Theatre.
Built in 1913, the venue was originally known as the Lyceum, and then the Liberty, before becoming the Hollywood Burlesque in 1936.
On March 16, 1971 (a day officially declared by the City "Off Broadway Day.") it was renamed the Off Broadway Theatre.
The Off Broadway closed in 1975.
It seems strange that the photo was from 1940 when the theatre was already showing burlesque shows. A lot of the women in the cast are wearing skimpy costumes – perhaps this ‘is’ a burlesque show ?
The "Femme Mimics" site is very interesting and quite a revelation :0 Thanks
I honestly doubt any of them could be Shimmy/Timmy (maybe post Shimmy but not likely). My impression is Shimmy was a romantic(?) leading lady not character actress. Drag acts usually played for laughs rather really taken seriously.
melster said:
"It seems strange that the photo was from 1940 when the theatre was already showing burlesque shows. A lot of the women in the cast are wearing skimpy costumes – perhaps this ‘is’ a burlesque show ?"
it is a burlesque cast..not a musical as previously thought.
Sorry Cheno - am a bit slow. You poste the Burlesque thing when I was writing a reply to Krebel about finding the picture. Then went off looking for what was showing at the Hollywood Theatre in 1940.
another post disappeared.
The guy in the upper right corner of the original picture has his head turned but looks like he has a scar on the right side of his face. He also resembles the really tall chick in the middle of the pic outside the Liberty theater.
More Whys?
1. When the Liberty closed the owners toured across the country while remodeling. They reopened to great business due the soldiers coming back.
2. They had great competition from the expo with all kinds of sex shows.
it didn't disappear..it's on the other Timmy board
You are ALL going to hate me but I went to bed last night after much research and decided it had to be Judy Holliday. Then this morning I was dashed when I read that EL had said it is not “Judy Holiday”. BUT HE MISSPELLED HER NAME!!! Was he making a dig at someone for misspelling her name??? And did he purposefully post it there to throw us off?? So, she is back on the table in my opinion!
Follow closely.
“Born Judith Tuvim ("Tuvim" is Yiddish for "Holiday") in New York City, she was the only child of Abe and Helen Tuvim, Jewish immigrants from Russia.” Wikipedia
Timmy didn’t fit in.
“She began her show business career in December, 1938, as part of a nightclub act called ‘The Revuers’.” Wikipedia
BI Picture of the “Golden Horseshoe Revue”
BI Picture what we have been calling Sunset Blvd. But it sure looks like a 1956 Cadillac in the photo??? Judy starred in “The Solid Gold Cadillac” in 1956!
From the BI photos we have the words "Golden", "Revue" and "Cadillac"...
Somebody mentioned “the meaty role” in the original blind as a clue. Well, Judy ends up in “Adam’s Rib”
“Katharine Hepburn deliberately leaked stories to the gossip columns suggesting that Holliday's performance in "Adam's Rib" was so good that it had stolen the spotlight from Spencer Tracy & Hepburn. This got Cohn's attention & Holliday won the part in "Born Yesterday". IMBD
Katherine Hepburn adored her.
Judy won GG and Oscar for “Born Yesterday”.
“Her mother was a piano instructor who was attending a play when she went into labor. She made it just in time. Judy would be her only child.” Imdb
Hmmm, sounds like a made up story to me.
“Despite her image of a "dumb blond", she was actually very smart. Her I.Q was measured at 172.” imbd
Capable then of pulling off some foolery???
Judy played against Lon McCallister in “Winged Victory”.
According to Imdb, “He never married, he was 82 at the time of his death, and was survived by brother Lynn and sister Kathleen.”
About Lon McCallister leaving the business of acting “Some reports state he lost interest and sought self-satisfaction elsewhere; others claim that his perennially boyish good looks and diminutive stature hurt his adult career.” Imdb
She was a good singer.
She too was heavily involved in the blacklisting stuff. I am sure this "blacklisting" coupled with the gay cover-up is at the heart of this blind.
Am I off.. or on to something?
Thoughts???
EL has already said that Shimmy is NOT Judy Holliday
see previous hint posts on Blog
Aargh, ENT has already said it's not Judy Holliday, but he's giving no further clues as to who Timmy/Shimmie is.
I'm still stuck on the Liberty photo, where the girl on the bottom right looks likes Joan Crawford?????
Is this a clue? AARRGGHHH
I think the picture proves that this isn't Alice Brady, who was dead by 1939. The career of Shimmy was in the 40s, and was probably over by the 50s. That's when musicals were still very popular, and when the studios were going strong.
Why did Timmy become Shimmy? To escape the army, and to make a better living than he could make as Timmy.
Why did Shimmy stop being Shimmy? Because somebody threatened to expose the fraud.
Timmy went on to sing at Disneyland, and perhaps became a vocal coach for the likes of Kathryn Hepburn (who needed one for Coco).
The timeline works out well, too. Timmy was born about 1920, so when he died in 1985, he was 65.
P.S. Now posting in two places.
Oy.
I'm trying to figure out if the 'why' could have anything to do with the Hays Office and the Motion Picture (censorship) Code that was implemented in 1930 and given teeth in 1934. It was in effect until the MPAA went to the 'G'/'M'/'R' rating system in the 60's.
I can't figure the angle, though. I've read that it was illegal in the 30's for men to dress as women, but that's not the reason the BI gives for why Timmy stopped acting in drag.
This is driving me nuts.
that could be part of it..though I can't help thinking it might be more tied into HUAC events..certainly that would have caused a lot of stress for a lot of people at the time, esp Timmy/Shimmy who feared not only the 'Red Menace' threat, but the threat of being exposed as a 'deviant' and a 'pervert' to the masses.
David,
Couldn't he have just said he was gay to get out of serving in the army? And didn't the draft start later?
EL said it wasn't "JUDY HOLIDAY".
Please note spelling!!!
IMHO he has not ruled out Judy HoLLiday.
farygica said...
"EL said it wasn't "JUDY HOLIDAY".
Please note spelling!!!
IMHO he has not ruled out Judy HoLLiday."
Paging Cleopatra Queen of Denial...
I didn't mean to suggest that Timmy wanted to escape being drafted.
But all patriotic men in the 40s tried to go to war, and if they didn't, they certainly were suspected of being perverts or worse, spies.
Perhaps our Tim found a good way to dodge both the army and the disapproval. By being permanently in drag.
I suppose HUAC could have had something to do with the end of Shimmy's career, but since EL hasn't mentioned anything about that, I suspect it was more simple: Shimmy was about to be found out, and had to stop the charade immediately (well, after a few years of getting smaller and smaller parts).
Timboy was happy to return to his male self, and happy to use his singing voice again.
I don't think EL would be quite that silly over it. He'd probably not just mention it.
I hope.
I've been researching all afternoon, and evening, and I'm just hitting dead end after dead end. I'm going to take a break and see if I can actually find something later that I can honestly contribute.
Sorry to offend Chenofan. I've been wading through this BI since the beginning, just like many of you, and I wanted to post what I thought was an interesting finding. A crafted misspelling, perhaps. You clearly don't agree and that's fine. But to sarcastically name call??? Please.
Perhaps a tie in is with the Thompston family who ran the theater for years? I posted a pdf of the history of that place further up. Maybe my posts are invisible?
Although I think Judy Holliday has been ruled out by ENT, that it was just a typo on his part, I still think she fit better than anyone else.
Timmy is going to be only found by chance, IMO. Digging as deep as we can into:
1. William Haines
2. Katherine Hepburn
3. Wherever the pics lead us
a.sunset Boulevard
b.Disney revue
c.Hollywood theatre
d.some hint in "the legends"
The WHY would seem to fit best with "payback" for how MGM did away with Haines... especially since the rumor is that MGM later protected a gay actor. (a fair haired man)
Dooforcist, I read the .pdf history of the Liberty Theater - very interesting!
I was cross-referencing all of the performers mentioned in the story w/imdb while I read it, but nothing popped. Although if my name was Bozo Lord or Kansas City Kitty, I'd probably be changing it pronto if I ever got a movie role.
De-lurking here to post for the first time...
The PDF linked above regarding the Lyceum/Hollywood Theater has some interesting information. In particular, discussing the owner, Bob Johnston, it says-
"Johnston’s generosity was his legendary weakness.It was not uncommon for him to put his friends, unemployed celebrities and sports figures, into the show so they could make a little cash...As vaudeville neared its demise, the Liberty became a sometimes refuge for displaced variety acts such as hypnotists,
jugglers, contortionists, and a range of others."
A footnote at the end of the article says-
"Occasionally,Johnston’s goodwill paid him back, as it did in the 1940s when he took in “Shanty,” a mysterious man in his fifties or sixties with a cowboy hat and dusty overalls. Shanty proved to be an excellent set designer and builder. He stayed gainfully employed at the theatre for “years and years,” creating some
of its most artistic stage scenery during the 1940s “golden years.” Unfortunately, not much is known
about him, including his real name, although he is remembered by Katherine Flores as “the love of
(her) life,” for the innocent and unrequited crush that she and the other young women in the chorus
all shared."
Hmm..EL never says that Timmy returned to acting, only that he returned to the theater. In addition, he was the subject of numerous crushes from young, presumably attractive women, but never returned their affections. Gay, maybe? Of course, if he was in his 50's in the 1940's, he would have been in his 90's by the1980's, so the timeline's no great, but I thought it was very interesting.
I'm guessing that the Horshoe Revue (Disney) comes after the Liberty/Hollywood theatre. Is there any way we can find cast/crew lists for both and start trying to match anyone?
I'm just thinking we're looking for Timmy here and not Shimmy. Just a guess
At the bottom of this page there's a cast list for the Golden Horseshoe Revue.
To follow up with what thedooforcist said, if we're looking for Timmy in the theater picture, could that not be the post-Shimmy Timmy? It seems like everybody's assuming that it's a clue to Timmy before he became Shimmy, but I don't recall any reason why that had to be the case. If it was post-Shimmy, then the timeline fits for AB as Shimmy.
One more thing. When Ent said that nobody was discussing the WHY, he also said that he hadn't read everything--people did start getting into the why pretty far in to the discussion, so maybe he hadn't read that far yet.
for the Golden Horseshoe Revue @ Disneyland, this was the cast over the years:
Slue Foot Sue:
Judy Marsh (First 1955)
Betty Taylor (Second 1956-1986)
Emcee:
Donald Novis (First 1955-1962)
Fulton Burley (Second 1962-1986)
Jay Meyer (Third 1986-?)
Comedian/Traveling salesman/Pecos Bill:
Wally Boag (First 1955-1986)
Dick Hardwick (Second-replaced Wally in the mid-80s)
Bert Henry (replacement/understudy for Wally Boag)
Dates unknown for these but were all subs/understdies most likely later than the original cast (which is what the picture on the blog is)
Kirk Wall
Dana Daniels
Jimmy Adams
Pre-show warm-up:
Jack Watson (later replaced by a slide show)
Could the guy sitting in the middle of the photo on the 7th page of this PDF be Timmy? He looks really wimpy. ;)
hard to say..possible..but that's a cast from the 30s..the other pic was from the 40s and the theatre was a different name
Delurking for a moment,
I've been reading these posts for days now. I remain Team KK, just because the era for AB is off.
If Timmy were AB back in the 30s, then he would have been at least 70, more likely 80, at the time of his AIDS related death between 1980-85. That's too old to have partaken in the bath house culture of the 70s.
And an old man dying of complications isn't usually linked definitively to AIDS. Karposi's Sarcoma accompanies other illnesses of the aged, as does regular old pneumonia. Probably no one in 1985 would have thought to test a dying 75 year old for AIDS, even if he displayed similar symptoms.
Now for KK/Timmy, he would have been about 50 - 65 years old at the time of his death, and that makes a lot more sense. He could still be working in theater right up to his death, which would have presented unmistakably as AIDS.
plot
Farygica, I have to admit I saw the Judy "Holiday" thing and thought the same thing. At one point, the clues seemed tailor-made for her. But then I noticed that EL makes lots of spelling mistakes.
Farygica, Wonderingone is right, EL makes a lot of typo's and doesn't play games with spelling to throw us off. Judy Holliday was eliminated early on because she won her award in 1951 and continued working until 1960. EL left a post saying when you see someone who won and worked for several years following the win, it wasn't the right person.
Why Why Why
Maybe the reason EL thinks Timmy picture is unlikely to be made is that it has been made already. Maybe even twice Gypsy and Tootsie.
Maybe the reason it cannot come out is because if you had to give back awards, then you would have to prove gender and identity. THis would not REALLY matter with regular awards, but SAG is a union. The votes to become a union and legalities may have been performed by someone with a fake identity. Something that could destroy the whole foundation of a union would very likely never come as a movie.
I guess cyberspace is eating my posts today. Sorry if this later appears as a double post.
I wanted to say to Farygica that we accept it is not about Judy Holliday, HOWEVER...When I first went through the original BI with a fine-tooth comb, the word "solid" jumped out at me, and my first thought was "Solid Gold Cadillac." Your mention of "gold" and "Cadillac" brought that word "solid" back to me.
And I also thought that when ENT said "It," he was referring to the spelling of her last name and not eliminating her from this game.
But we can't get around the fact that she has a 10-year period of working after her win, which is not allowed by the 4-year span of the clues.
Combined between Timmy AND his female persona they were in over 100 movies.
This means either one could not have over 100 alone so anyone who has over 100 movies is out, no?
Rocky,
Thanks for your concern about me! As Ent, Pinky and many of my pals here well know, I am indeed busy with my new job (something being a CDAN regular helped me to get, I might add) but you haven't heard about it because #1) I have signed a non-disclosure agreement and #2) the website hasn't formally launched yet - we are still beta testing. When the time comes, there will be an announcement, don't you worry.
I'm glad you're following what I'm up to, but unfortunately my contributions to Timmy/Shimmy guessing are necessarily limited by the fact that all I can do right now is skim these 931-comment-long sections for the main points.
Sorry to disappoint, but I am checking in as much as time permits, and I have created a thread on the Message Board to discuss Timmy/Shimmy (too little too late, I know...)- hope this helps eve a bit!
My personal blog has suffered somewhat as well, but I'll have a post up on it and the CDANCON blog this week too.
Love to my CDAN peeps!
Ok, at 2:18pm today I just read the comment I posted at 12:26pm yesterday - and the reply. I just can't keep up.
But, my comment was about what somebody said about SAG awards monthly all those years ago. The person posted and nobody ever said another thing about it. I think an answer might be there.
Also, another strange thing that might not matter was that at one point I was on a trail that led me to Tonto. Something about American Indians. Of course, that does not fit the "fair" description. And I could not find any other American Indian that might fit this.
All is very interesting. And I did order the Mabel East Lake book for about $9 including shipping on Amazon.
Carry on my friends!!
Oh, one more thing i have been contemplating. Is there a reason why this is coming out NOW? (I dont mean a book or movie deal). Did someone famous recently pass away that was connected to all of this, even in an obscure way that passed away in the past year and JJ /Ent wanted to wait until the players were deceased before revealing this?
I cant help but think the Enquirer and Star and the tabloids have reporters just waiting to write this story on the cover once it is revealed.
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