John Ramsey Trying To Block Release Of Secret Indictment
John Ramsey wants the indictment blocked because it will defame him. I'm not sure how he has ever been defamed in this case. It is an indictment that says he abused his child. It is a valid legal document and just because he was not charged by the district attorney does not mean the charges were wrong, only that they could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. It does not mean they could not be proved with a lesser burden as in a civil trial but there was no one to sue on Jon Benet's behalf. That would have been interesting.
90 comments:
I was 10 when this happened. No one has forgotten this. Someone needs to stand on her behalf.
Up next in your morning line up, child murrderrr!!
Little girl is dead. Nothing gonna bring her back, nothing gonna convict anyone. Let it go.
karma.
I dunno if there's a use by date on justice Count. Think Nuremberg.
Full article.
http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_24350597/john-ramsey-release-entire-grand-jury-record-not-only-indictment
Sorry, can't make it clicky.
It's NOT OK to simply let it go because it won't bring her back.
they found dna in her underwear that isn't related to anyone in the house.
Until a hit comes from that DNA we will never know who did it.
I think it was some random obsessed stalker that got in raped and killed her. Just some lowlife scumbag who got away with murder for decades.
@Rach: Wife, Husband and son aren't going to testify against each other, so there will never be a conviction. Only real chance is if addiction got a firm hold on the boy and he lets something slip while high or during withdrawals.
Count, I guess I'm an idealist who believes in natural justice. And fisting. Of consenting adults.
I thought both he and his wife were both completely exonerated, perhaps right after his wife died?
I think he is just asking for the grand jury records to be released. That doesn't sound unreasonable. I don't know who did this but if it wasn't the parents, the witch hunt for them is abysmal. But if it was...
Will this case ever be solved?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/john-ramsey-indictment_n_4138617.html?icid=maing-grid7|htmlws-main-bb|dl4|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D394664?show_comment_id=294396441#comment_294396441
DNA test proved the parents were NOT involved in her murder
and Enty ,where did you read about her abuse by her parents ?
Where is Angela Lansbury when you need her?
Then there's the third option. She was accidentally killed by someone her parents gave access to. John and Patsy were the only suspects for quite a while. The case was horribly mismanaged. I doubt we will ever know what really happened.
At this point this case will never be solved unless someone steps forward and confesses or has first person testimony and hasn't talked yet. Even then half the people will not believe it- too much time has passed. Will not be solved by detective work and circumstantial evidence at this point.
The DNA was touch DNA and didn't exclude anyone. There was a LOT of spin the the JBR case by the DA and the Ramsey camp. If you want to look at the actual files - A Candy Rose has it all uploaded. The autopsy shows both chronic and acute vaginal trauma consistent with abuse. That little girl went through so much in her short life. Websleuths has a great forum to discuss the case. I absolutely believe that someone in that house killed JBR and I'm leaning towards John.
Define abuse in this case. There is a radical difference between sexual abuse, emotional abuse and physical abuse.
@Rach Around, YES! The best thing about Jessica Fletcher was she didn't need DNA, forensics or actual physical evidence. She'd tell them how and why they did it. The perpetrator would then hang their heads in shame while she made her Judgy Face. JB Fletcher was one bad b*tch.
Didn't the media relentlessly crucify these parents for years until they were cleared by DNA? If that's not the very definition of defamation, I don't know what is. I really don't think the parents did this; I think it was a crazy stalker who worked for the family. Isn't that the popular theory?
The DNA may not have matched anyone in the household, but who's to say her parents weren't allowing others to defile the little girl? I mean, think of the heartwarming story of parental care and nurturing Enty posted yesterday. If it's a white collar buddy in the neighborhood, there not likely to ever be a DNA database match.
Honestly Enty can't be a lawyer !
how can a lawyer agree on the release of ONLY what it has been said (true or not) against the parents ?
what they want released is the so-called facts from the grand jury proceedings, where the family wasn't allowed to have representation, there was no assumption of innocence, every person with a grudge was allowed to essentially make stuff up with no opportunity to counter, and there was no opportunity for the family to counter those "facts".
Nah, I've worked w trauma victims dude. Same symptoms, different application, same outcome.
@D brown: good point
The vagina trauma is consistent with chronic and acute sexual abuse. Though, I believe, not penile penetration, but digital. This is also consistent with JBR being a bed wetter.
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetindex.htm
http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996autopsy.htm
Good source of information - the legal documents. But the site itself looks like an old geocities website.
This is also misleading. They arent trying to quash the evidence, they want it all presented.
"...if the unprosecuted indictment is to be publicly released, the court should also order release of the entire grand jury record, including all witness testimony, all exhibits, all colloquy discussions between prosecutors and the grand jury and all drafts of potential indictments presented by the prosecutors of the grand jury."
BTown: don't let that fluffy quiff fool you. Nor the sir Paul McCartney demeanour. Jessica WAS the culprit in
Every case. Dead body? Here's Miss Fletcher.
Someone about to get murderised? Hey Aunt Jessica! She had the ultimate crime : innocent old lady with dried up cooze, just HAPPENS to be present when someone dies. Miss Marple didn't have the copyright to that chestnut.
The DA LIED about the Ramseys being exonerated. He said that the Grand Jury not indicting them was evidence of their innocence and that the DNA cleared them. BUT 1) it turns out the Grand Jury DID indict them and 2) DNA experts have repeatedly said that the touch DNA does not exonerate the Ramseys. DNA is everywhere. What isn't discussed a lot is that fibers inside JBR's panties matched John Ramsey's shirt he was wearing. INSIDE the panties, not on the outside.
So sad, can't believe it's that long ago and never solved.
There is suggestion out there that the parents were allowing someone else to abuse her (which makes them just as guilty). There is also suggestion about Illuminati sacrifice being the reason for her murder but I mainly mention that because it painted an interesting perspective when googled.
They're always so quick to blame the parents but I'd always wondered if it might have even been her older brother....
Misleading.
**Actual** Headline: "John Ramsey: Release entire grand jury record, not just indictment, in JonBenet case"
C'mon, man.
That's a bush league tactic.
The house has been for sale for a while, the listing was just removed. Link with some basement pictures
@Victoria:
Mary Lacy DA, publicly exonerated the Ramsey family this year in the Dec. 26, 1996, murder.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/john-ramsey-indictment_n_4138617.html?icid=maing-grid7|htmlws-main-bb|dl4|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D394664?show_comment_id=294396441#comment_294396441
BTowngirl: we all know she did it
@ Rach
Do you seriously have to post a hundered times in each comments section? Annoying.
Wow Victoria, it would also explain the way the family behaved in the aftermath of discovering her body assuming they did not kill her but if Ramsay was molesting his daughter he would have to know it would come out in the autopsy or he felt he had to protect whoever was abusing her if he wasn't him for whatever various reasons.
This case is so tragic. I wish the truth would come out. Poor girl.
Couldn't fibers get in her clothes from being washed together or something?
I tend to agree it was her dad or someone else very close to her, but the problem with family crimes is that the DNA and fiber evidence is pretty easily explained. Obviously not something like sperm on her, but I mean her mom or dad or brother's hair on her would not be unusual. My freaking hair gets all over our house and intertwined in my husband's clothes from the washing machine.
Karrots. Yes. Times infinity.
Count, really disagree with you on this. There has long been strong suspiciion of the parents being child murderers as bits and pieces of evidence have "leaked". Just as OJ got away with murder, a double murder for that matter, it may very well be that the Ramsey parents have too. At least so far.
You look like Blue Waffles with bunny ears.
Frenchgirl: my point is that I think the DA is corrupt and lying because the Ramseys were extremely influential in Boulder.
Tammy - you're exactly right that the DNA evidence can be easily explained or cause reasonable doubt. That's the sad part.
Last year I stumbled into JBR's websluths forum and got sucked in, the more I read about the case (and the facts, not just opinions - but things re: autopsy etc) the more I got outraged because it seems as though this case COULD HAVE been easily solved. The DA gave the Ramseys access to all their evidence before any charges, they were not interviewed right away but had time to talk to one another and their attorneys and the responding officer, since it was initially treated as a kidnapping, allowed John Ramsey and his friend Fleet White to go through the house unattended where John found JBR's body in a cellar in the basement where Fleet (and a police officer) had previously looked and didn't see anything (though granted, they just peeked into the door and didn't go into it).
John also had a plane ready to go somewhere (MI?) to meet his family for Christmas, and after JBR was found, called the pilot and planned to still leave but didn't because, IIRC, Fleet told him not to. Fleet White had become estranged from the Ramseys after all this and I think he knows something.
I've always thought that the parents did it.
I think the dad killed her and the mom covered it up.
I thought I knew about this case but turns out I did NOT know all the details, specifically the DNA found in her panties or the proof of vaginal abuse. UGH. Poor little girl, as if being trotted out for beauty pageants wasn't enough.
I also have read of complete exoneration. I'm still not sure what's going on here, especially since he's not fighting the indictment being made public, but rather wanting to include all the record which may show why he was no indicted.
Victoria - more info that is suspicious! This whole time I've been feeling sorry for him going thru all this hell and being innocent.
This is just so sad. We obviously will never know what all truly happened. Shadiest damn investigation ever. I don't think anyone will ever forget this.
& yet shows like Toddlers & Tiara's prevailed.......there is just something SO wrong about dressing 5 yr olds up like 25 yr old women & parading them around & rewarding them for it. Just my opinion.
I always noted that bitch Jessica appeared near every murder. Perfect cover for a serial killer. And then she used her keen powers in necromancy to force another to confess!!!!
Does anyone remember the 911 recording? The mom called 911 and you can hear her saying something along the lines of "OMG what did you do". It almost has to be father or son.
Sad how the public has mostly bought that the Ramseys were not involved. The excessively long ransom note was written IN THE HOUSE and Patsy Ramsey is the most likely suspect (she was not eliminated as the possible scribe). What self-respecting random rapist/murderer would stay in the house and write some rambling random note?!?
If the son was involved it was because he was being abused too.
I wasn't aware there was a limit. Did I miss this information? Is 3 too many?
I think Burke the brother was involved. The Ramsey's wouldn't let Burke be interviewed by the police until many months later.
Victoria, thank you for posting possible sexual abuse reports. However it also highlights why a DA would not prosecute. If a child is molested the family, having proximity, are natural suspects. However, what about when the child is at school, on play dates etc. In the absence of DNA, eye witness or other collaborating evidence a DA ouldn't prove that the child was never alone with others who could have committed the acts.
I just took a real look at that pic, if u block out everything but this poor child's eyes....u see it, the little bags & sadness. Her smile never meets her eyes in any shots of her. Someone was certainly abusing her, cuz 5 yr olds don't normally have that tired, lifelessness in their eyes.
Hannah I can't really look at it. It's just all too
Sad! Just the idea that this little girl was hurting so much inside....it's just too much.
DNA found on her did not match anyone in family, someone eles did it. Always felt bad for mom, I know people still think they had something to do with it, but I never did, idk.
Victoria - Just a side point - the "FACTS", not opinions, that you are basing your opinion on are, themselves 'opinions'.
One of the scary things about 'scientific' evidence like autopsies, fingerprints, fiber evidence, etc is that how it's handled, interpreted, used can be just as flawed as any other type of evidence. The conclusions that are drawn can be incorrect. An autopsy with signs of vaginal trauma is a CONCLUSION. I'm not a doctor. I don't know how good the evidence was from which that opinion came.
I am a lawyer. I do see reports on sex abuse all the time. Doctors make diagnoses of sex abuse all the time. With little or no actual forensic evidence to back it up.
Just remember - the findings in an autopsy are opinion too.
I hear you. As a survivor of some serious abuse, it just kills me. I know that look....I've seen it in the mirror too many times.
The points that I remember are that the ransom note was written on a pad of paper that came from the house, named an amount that matched John Ramsay's exact bonus that Christmas, and that he found her body when the cops missed it. I think Patsy was on meds and wrote the note because no one in their right mind would do that. Either John or the brother was involved. Always thought they were innocent but had those nagging doubts about the ransom note. Either way, a beautiful little girl is gone, so is Patsy. Sad all around.
The book "My Sister, My Love" by Joyce carol Oates was a fictionalized account of the Jon Benet murder and was really fantastic. I highly recommend it.
I always wondered if her parents sold her to clients and her pageants were a way to advertise her. Sick I know, but it was always a thought.
lizness: I read it, excellent book! I love JCO's writing style.
Mistang - you can't discount the thought completely. I would like to think the mother wasn't aware, but you just can't be that naive!
The entire crime scene was contaminated by both John Ramsey & the incompetent Boulder cops who walked all over the house without taking any precautions.
They could have brought in DNA from anyone, anywhere in Boulder.
But I've always thought the parents were covering up for the son, who was jealous of all the extra attention his insane mother was giving his little sister. Patsy had been a Miss America runner-up & was determined to make her daughter the winner.
I'm confused because I thought Karrots was canopener and her and Rach used to braid each other's hair all the time.
Count, your idiotic posts are getting weak. What's wrong? Can't figure out a way to twist this in to an anal fuck fisting cum dumpster transvestitestripper Ass to Mouth whore slut bitch who deserved it? You're slipping. Surely you can be more offensive and foul than that on this beautiful fall day? Come on..you can do it...
Count, your idiotic posts are getting weak. What's wrong? Can't figure out a way to twist this in to an anal fuck fisting cum dumpster transvestitestripper Ass to Mouth whore slut bitch who deserved it? You're slipping. Surely you can be more offensive and foul than that on this beautiful fall day? Come on..you can do it...
I read an interesting piece about John Ramsey's daughter from a previous marriage that died in a car accident after telling her fiancé that her dad sexually abused her. She was older and just engaged and got into a very serious car accident that killed her and her fiancé. It was a crazy piece, but if you look up John's children you will see he had another daughter who died tragically. Crazy stuff
@Hannah I felt the exact way about this picture. Takes one, to know one. Glad to be a survivor. Light and strength
I am not a fan of Murder posts. Could the comments please focus on the Rape/Molestation/Incest angle of the story? Thank you.
Ive read alot about this, and while I dont know if father or mother guilty,but something was way way off with that whole scene. But the parents clammed up and lawyered up asap, so I dont feel sorry for them/him at all. Be forthcoming and doubts will go away.
@Rosie the Tworon: There was nothing idiotic about my posts prior to yours. If you think anything is going to lead to someone serving time for the girl's death, then do the world a favor and hold your breath until that happens.
Other than that, droning on about this case is nothing but a waste of time and exploiting a dead little girl for clicks, publicity and book sales. You wanna support the exploitation of a dead little abused girl, go ahead. And fuck yourself while your at it, cunt.
Not to sound as a supporter of the Ramsey parents, fibers from the dad's shirt being found inside her panties can easily be dismissed as remnants of doing laundry. Dryers remove a lot of lint, but how many times have you still found some on your socks, underwear, etc.. Anything cotton will hold onto fibers.
I've always thought that it was the demon ghost of the Lindbergh Baby that killed JBR as he fell in love with her and wanted her soul forever to be with him.
Count wins awesome post of the day and rowdy is a close second! Where's seven on this fine fall day?
Wholeheartedly agree. I have been studying this for years and from everything I have always read, your answer seems very accurate.
I believe it drove Patsy over the edge in the end, cancer and all..
My niece does physical culture, they do dance & gymnastics & have make-up on for the competition. I find that bad enough, however, they let her out of the house, at 11, with make-up on. I can't do anything about it as we are kept from the children, I only know because of Facebook. In my opinion there is no need for children, in any competition, to wear make-up. At least I had a childhood. Hopefully one day Jon Bonet will have justice.
@Anothergrayhare, that ransom note is what kills me. Not only was it written in the house and asking for that odd amount, but the writer claimed to be a member of a "small foreign faction". Who the Hell describes themselves as "foreign"???
I know there's a strong case to be made for another suspect--don't remember his name, but he's dead and there are photos of his body in his bedroom--but no one will ever convince me that at least one of the Ramseys weren't involved.
I still think the brother did it
@ Notorious
I have never posted under another name. I think people accused me and Kympossible (who is now canopener?) of being one in the same because I got upset about the radio show ripoff and she jumped on my bandwagon and for a day we both fought for the same cause. How that makes us the same in the eyes of some I don't understand.
But I assure you I am just one poster, and rarely even that anymore. The direction the blog and even the comments section has taken in the last year just doesn't tickle my fancy like it once did. When I do read the comments I find myself having to wade through 15 different posts from Rach Around who seems to have an inflated sense of self ever since she lost her shit because someone made fun of her and a few posters coddled her into thinking people actually cared if she stuck around. I shouldn't have said anything it was really quite juvenile of me to call her annoying but oh well. It's out there now. I did find it ironic though that when she lost her shit she claimed she's never directed her shitty comments towards another commentor and just today said my pic looks like an STD with bunny ears. Which was an even dumber response to my dumb comment.
I don't think her brother Burke had anything to do with her murder. BUT, he was in the home the night she was murdered and may have seen or heard something that the Ramsey's didn't want him telling police about. Due to his age, maybe they thought waiting to speak to police would make his memory fuzzy, or they used that time to drill into him what he saw/heard that night until it became the truth in his young mind. It's easy to manipulate a child in that situation.
I wonder if, after John Ramsey dies, Burke will come forward and give us more information about his memories of that night.
The. Parents. Were. Cleared.
I think Patsy did it. I thought that from day one, and nothing has ever been proven to change my mind. These people acted so strange following the death of their daughter--like they were insulted that any one would think they could do such a thing, even though there was that totally bizarre ransom note. It is sad that justice seems to have taken a back seat to politics on this case.
@Count Jerkula, I knew I liked you for a reason, other than you deemed me doable. Lol. Loved your comment and agree wholeheartedly. You really are quite kind, and good hearted.
Kara - you're right, the facts are opinions. Doctors can be wrong, statistics can be used in many ways. It just drives me crazy that people still believe the Ramseys were cleared when expert opinions (rather than the DA) do not rule them out.
John Ramsey's older daughter died mysteriously, and I Di believe that whole family is/was rotten to the core. Maybe someday the son who was in the house will tell his side of this awful tale. I believe the parents are guilty of abuse. I still cannot quite figure out what happened that JonBenet died, but the kind of nonsense done to her was SO over the top that I suspect MK Ultra/ritual abuse.
The elaborate murder 'weapon', the fact that she was covered by a blanket, and her father bringing her body upstairs and laying it down under the Christmas tree, along with the INSANE delay before the forensic team got there. Oh, and the purported fact that no one found her the first time the house was searched? Um. Yeah. All of this info is seared into my brain. John and Patsy's behavior was all so so wrong. I REALLY want the son to come forward. But since he is probably about the age his half sister died, he is probably very well aware that his own life remains at risk. Poor kid.
Victoria, thanks for pointing me toward a candy rose, I read alot of JBR info that I didn't know about the case! Very interesting, has changed my opinion about Patsy for sure, thanks!
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