September 11 Timmy Update
#1 One very good possibility for Shimmy was discarded much too easily.
#2 Yes, the explanation for the blind is long, but only because it would be a disservice to just give the answer and not tell you the why. I did see a comment where someone got very close to the why.
#3 I was going to post something on Jane Wyman and then figured everyone would see the photo and die, so held back. Ditto a photo collection of Hollywood leading ladies which is really incredible.
#4 The photos in the post are just photos and as far as I know Timmy isn't in any of them. They were just photos I found on Google looking for old Hollywood casts. I'm amazed by the amount of research done on the theatres and if there is a historical society associated with them, they have enough for a book.
#5 Sorry to disappoint the t-shirt makers (where are the free t-shirts for all the people who worked on this?) but it isn't Kay Kendall for Shimmy (did I hear a gasp or groan?) and it isn't Robert Moore for Timmy.
#6 Not Judy Holiday, Judy Holliday, or Madonna's song Holiday.
The only reason I'm still here at the moment is because I think that this item has become a monster beyond what ENT originaly thought. I think he is hoping we will all drift away and forget about this item.
ReplyDeleteI'm staging a sit in !!
I really don't think this is going to go away for a long time,it has morphed into something scary and viral now.
ReplyDeleteTimmy/Shimmy is now the ebola of gossip
Wendywings said:
ReplyDelete"Timmy/Shimmy is now the ebola of gossip"
Yes, and it's eating away at our brains.
Weird how the posting has slowed down a lot. Where's our new hint? I really hope this doesn't just 'fade out' like the MV BI..
ReplyDeleteLOL! at 'the ebola of gossip'...so very true. I have been *obsessed* with Timmy/Shimmy...have spent the past two weeks practically glued to each and every post/comment. I only wish my research skills were up to all those who've contributed-but you've all put me to shame! I was rather disappointed when Ent 'notted' Kay Kendall, I really thought we were onto a winner there...
ReplyDeleteI'm so desperate now for the reveal, it's driving me-and everyone else, by the sounds of it-mad!!
Cherrie, I think the posting has slowed down because EL isn't throwing any more hints our way. People can't stay interested talking about the same thing they've been talking about. I hope he throws us a bone here to get things going again.
ReplyDeleteAgree with Twisted Sister - I've hit a brick wall.
ReplyDeleteAlso as I said before we need a clue - if ENT turns round and just says it's not Alice Brady we are no nearer.
ReplyDeleteTrue, Meister, but at least we would all be scurrying around looking for other leads. Now we're just....stalemated.
ReplyDeleteWill B. Able is an interesting. He was born in Rhode Island and died in 1981. He did Broadway with Katherine Hepburn In Coco. He also did musicals on TV in the 60's for children. A lot of make-up and masks were involved (Jack and the Beanstalk), which could hide his skin condition.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.imdb.com/name/nm0008810/
http://www.ibdb.com/person.asp?ID=101324
Things I have learned thanks to Timmy/Shimmy:
ReplyDelete1) Katherine Hepburn was more screwed up and interesting than I though a person could be. She looks GREAT as a guy, too.
2) Female movie stars were much better looking in the past.
3) Only young and sexy people have sex. Old people can't find sex partners which means they can't get HIV.
4) William Haines was gorgeous.
5) William Haines was a brave man.
6) Lots of famous people have lurid secrets.
7) Some of the twisted posters here are not worthy of a crack whore's syphilitic vaginal discharge.
8) Some of posters here are as patient as Mussolini waiting for a train.
9) Even my most rural and backwoods customers know about this Blind Item.
As I said before, I don't think it is Greta Garbo, I'm just saying that it's possible. I googled Greta Garbo nude, and the closest I got (that I wouldn't have had to give up a credit card number for, was an article stating that an alleged lover had take photos of Garbo sunbathing topless.
ReplyDeleteI found lots of other women. I found Ninotchka photos in which the fun bags look undeniable, but Garbo had her own wardrobe guy. And he quit when she did. So could be maybe, possibly, they used prosthetics. On the other hand, that saggy tit wrinkle thing a woman gets under her armpit is clearly visible in any later photo involving a backless or sleeveless gown. Sigh. I think a saggy tit wrinkle would be above-and-beyond the call of duty for someone pretending to be a woman.
One random thought - what if Timmy's later work was as a choreographer or director out East? He could have been involved in tons of theater productions behind the scenes with nobody getting a look at his famous face.
julie.dorsett - I like your theory. It's very simple and straight forward and non-convoluted. However - as far as Timmy pretending to be a woman to evade the draft - couldn't he have just told him that he was a homosexual? Was that enough back them to prevent them from drafting someone?
ReplyDeleteI just dug up AB's obit in the 1939 NYTimes. In part it states that Alice died in New York after a LONG illness.[ to me that means more than two years]. It also says portions of her last scenes had to be re-written so she could perform seated.[supposedly because of a broken ankle]. I still think our Timmie whoever and whatever he was, finished up AB's film carrer and won the OSCAR for her. The hives were a bi-product of keeping up the chararde. Just maybe Timmie collected the big award himself that night.
ReplyDeleteJust Asking!
Road warrior said:
ReplyDelete"7) Some of the twisted posters here are not worthy of a crack whore's syphilitic vaginal discharge."
Twisted? Uh oh!
I love your post, Road Warrior! I'm done with guesses and will patiently await the reveal but I had a couple more ideas to throw out there.
ReplyDelete1) Perhaps Timmy/Shimmy arranged to have themself named a communist during the blacklisting period to give themself a good excuse to "retire".
2) I can't back Alice for Timmy because even in the 20's-40's faking a death would require the cooperation of doctors, coroners, funeral directors, etc. I think Shimmy "faded away."
3) That's why I think Shimmy will have a European background. In the years between and including the wars it would be accepted that a person would have no "documentation," ie. birth or baptism certificates, etc. Didn't every actor at the time claim to have performed before the "crowned heads of Europe"? Also, Shimmy could just go "home" to retire with far less scrutiny.
4) Ent. never said that Timmy hung up his glad rags for good. It's entirely possible that Shimmy was available for special occasions (like Oscar reunions) right up until Timmy died.
Anyway, that's all my theories. It will be fun to see if I've hit any. (But generally, I'm really crappy at this stuff). Oh well, it's been fun!
Poznaznorml - Good question about the draft, but if he was of age to be drafted, was healthy, but didn't have to go, the public and the studio would ask questions, no? Would he then have been "handled" like Wm. Haines (and many others) and encouraged to marry to keep up appearances? Why not try to avoid it altogether by disappearing while still having a career?
ReplyDeleteOops, I forgot one.
ReplyDelete5) My dad has psoriasis and it's just miserable. It's stress induced, can scar, impossible to cover up with makeup and incurable. Maybe Timmy has psoriasis, not hives or shingles.
Now, I'm done!
Oops, I forgot one.
ReplyDelete5) My dad has psoriasis and it's just miserable. It's stress induced, can scar, impossible to cover up with makeup and incurable. Maybe Timmy has psoriasis, not hives or shingles.
Now, I'm done!
It could also be Herpes which doesn't always just show around the mouth and nose but can be blisters all over the face. It can be caught my giving oral sex which as Timmy was gay would be possible.
ReplyDeletehttp://hab.hrsa.gov/tools/palliative/images/P9-7.gif
Stress is also a trigger.
Just as people are starting to look beyond Alice Brady, I’m giving her a closer look. Perverse, I know.
ReplyDeleteFound something interesting when I googled ”Alice Brady” secret that I don’t remember seeing posted yet.
Did you guys know Bogart was the son of a NY surgeon and was educated in private boys’ prep schools? I didn’t. Did you know Bogart was gay? I did, but only since researching Timmy. Have you seen the excerpt on googlebooks of ‘The Secret Life of Humphrey Bogart’ that outlines his romantic relationship as a teenager with Alice Brady’s brother, Bill? Check it out, if you’re interested. I won’t have time to read it all until later tonight, but I’m thinking there may be Brady clues in there about her early life.
"I think a saggy tit wrinkle would be above-and-beyond the call of duty for someone pretending to be a woman."
ReplyDeleteI literally choked on my dinner and I'm STILL laughing at that one. You know how u keep thinking about something funny even after you're done reading it?? It just keeps popping into your head?? Well, that's the above quote for me.
Every time we spend hours going down a path (looking for Timmy, researching a non-AB Shimmy, etc) it’s dead end city. But AB, whether she was the identity that Timmy took for Shimmy or not, is (at least for us) a pretty interesting person.
ReplyDeleteSo – herewith some more fodder for the AB theory. First is a line by line justification against the original blind and second a WAG theory as to why with support from published articles. We combed through hundreds of articles in the New York Times archive and culled out the most interesting.
ENT’s Blind: “Timmy was initially given meaty supporting roles” and “Over the next two years, Timmy worked steadily as a woman and kept getting better and better roles. He was very rarely the lead”
Alice arrived in Hollywood in 1933 and was in substantial supporting (some almost leading) roles – the eponymous stage mother of “Stage Mother,” 1st gen vaudeville family matriarch in “Broadway to Hollywood,” the dizzy aunt in “Gay Divorcee,” zany Mom in “My Man Godfrey,” etc.
ENT’s Blind: “in memorable role he was cast as the lead opposite a very closeted A list at the time actor who also remained single for his entire life”
Thinking Metropolitan/Cesar Romero (1935) for this.
ENT’s Blind: “Shortly after Timmy was cast as the lead, he was cast in another role which is the subject of the blind.”
1937 – In Old Chicago – Mrs. O’Leary
ENT’s Blind: “There he was, the woman who was really a gay man was being honored for being the Best Supporting Actress/Best Actress of the year.”
Best Supporting Actress – Academy Award win in 1938 for In Old Chicago. Mysterious man accepts award because Brady is home with a broken ankle.
ENT’s Blind: “Timmy the award winning actress was having trouble finding work because of his condition and so he saw his career slowly work its way back down the ladder over the course of three or four years.”
Well, Brady only worked for about 18 months after her win. March 10, 1938 AA to October 28, 1939 her death. The movie she was working on post-win “Goodbye Broadway” was a tough shoot. Cf the Hedda Hopper article from the LA Times we quoted earlier. And the shoot had to be stopped because of AB’s flu and pink-eye. A cover for hives? Her last movie was in “Young Mr Lincoln” and though she had high billing from the plot summaries it looks like it easily could have been a fairly small role.
Shimmy stops working – Brady dies.
Now – to the WHY. Maybe AB was the Lindsay Lohan of her time. Unreliable, hard to work with, perhaps using drink or drugs? She was the Wm Brady money machine (after World went down) and Brady didn’t want to lose that. When AB couldn’t work any longer – Wm Brady subbed in another actress that looked kinda like Alice to carry on the family name and keep the money train rolling. Wm Brady didn’t have qualms about pulling one over on the Hollywood crew because he’d seen his fantastic career as head of World die due to the move of the film industry from Fort Lee, NJ to Hollywood, CA. The real Alice was either dead, didn’t want to deal with acting any longer, or just told to keep quiet.
>>Unreliable Alice (sick, lightning bolts – or just unreliable?)
April 27, 1921 "Alice Brady hurt in auto wreck. . . . She was taken to her home here, but it is said the accident would not prevent her going on with the picture."
December 13, 1921 "ALICE BRADY HURT IN AUTO.; . . .forced to cancel her engagement here this afternoon. Miss Brady was reported to be suffering from nervousness. . . . "
January 8, 1922 "ALICE BRADY STRICKEN.; Taken Ill With Appendicitis and The Playhouse Closed. . . . ten minutes before the curtain was to go up . . . After Miss Brady has recovered she will return to the movies."
Oh no she didn’t – she kept on doing Broadway until 1933!
August 4, 1922 "Alice Brady's Car Stolen and Found. Rochester, NY Aug 3. - . . . following a chase through four counties by motorcycle officers and State troopers. . . In the car was found a quantity of men's clothing."
September 2, 1923 "POLICE RAID CLUB, GET 11 MEN, 9 WOMEN; . . . Alice Brady, 342 West 158th Street. . . charged with disorderly conduct, were held in $25 bail each."
[Note: not sure this is our Alice – can’t confirm that address for her]
September 7, 1926 "BOLT HITS ACTRESS'S CAR. Alice Brady, the actress, was a half hour late last night for the opening of "Sour Grapes" . . . her automobile was disabled by lightning in Central Park
April 12, 1929 "Alice Brady Closing Tomorrow. . . . Miss Brady's physician urged that she take a short rest before going on the road."
November 19, 1930 "ALICE BRADY DENIES INJURY; No Plaster Cast, She Says, Only Mild Case of 'Football Knee.'
August 6, 1936 "Alice Brady Seriously Ill. . . . nature of her ailment was not disclosed. Miss Brady was stricken suddenly, it was reported."
Also – cf that “Goodbye Broadway” had to shut down production in 1938 due to Alice’s flu and pink-eye (was reporting in the LA Times)
Though maybe all the illness is because she was sick with cancer?? At least the later illnesses could be attributed to that.
>>Hard to work with (breaking contracts, messed up plans, having affairs…)
December 29, 1921 "Alice Brady in 'Drifting' Monday. . . .The play will mark Miss Brady's final stage appearance for several years, as she will confine herself to film acting in California."
Oh no she didn’t – she kept on doing Broadway until 1933! But she did get out of Drifting after only doing a week of it (see appendicitis above)
October 5, 1927 "ALICE BRADY IN ROW; 'DENBIGH' WILL CLOSE; Star Said to Oppose Ousting of Leading Man From Cast of Theresa Helburn' s Play. . . . Austin Fairman”
October 6, 1927 On Denbigh: “Miss Brady declared, "I am sick and tired of playing failures,"”
Maybe Dad can help??
October 28, 1927 "ALICE BRADY LIKELY TO BE FATHER'S STAR;. . . . Since the abrupt close of the tour of 'Denbigh' a few weeks ago."
April 17, 1928 "ALICE BRADY will be at the Palace tomorrow; Austin Fairman, curiously enough, will be head man of Miss Brady's company."
Austin again?! Yes, curious indeed – James Crane was one of her leading man, and as you’ll see – Alice had a thing for at least one other of her leading men.
April 27, 1929 "ALICE BRADY JOINS GUILD.; Is Expected to Appear in Two of Its Plays Next Season."
Two reports – one that it is a 5 year contract, other reports indicate 3 – in either case, she didn’t make it.
December 10. 1929 "Alice Brady Faces Inquiry on Means. inability to pay a balance of $3,702 due in a judgment .. . was to have been examined on Oct. 17 but failed to appear."
January 3, 1930 "Alice Brady in 'Strange Interlude.' . . . in one of the play's two touring companies."
January 12, 1930 "Alice Brady Quits the Theatre Guild. . . Was to have gone on tour. Had been scheduled to appear in 'Strange Interlude' at Atlantic City. . . . Miss Brady stated at her home last night that she had been receiving medical treatment lately. Her agreement with the Guild, she explained, was for three years, but she has been released . . . She intends to rest for some time... . . . It has been common gossip on Broadway recently that Miss Brady was anything but pleased at the prospect of having to take over the long and exacting 'Strange Interlude' role on the road.”
Wow – she must be really sick! Don’t expect to see her acting for a while, right? Errr, maybe not – less than two weeks later:
January 24, 1930 "ALICE BRADY TO STAR IN 'MAN'S ENEMY'. . . Rehearsals are expected to begin in another week."
October 16, 1930
"DETROIT, Oct. 15--Naming as correspondent Alice Brady, actress,. . . Mrs. Bernice McClelland of Detroit filed suit for divorce.. . . Miss Brady and Mr. McCellland are now in Atlanta trying out a new show in which Miss Brady has the leading feminine role.”
Can Dad help get roles?
July 27, 1931 "ALICE BRADY SEEKS A BROADWAY HOUSE; Several Plays Wanted for Her, Says Father, William A. Brady, the Producer.”
Guess not – but the Guild is a forgiving place – so she goes back there
September 14, 1931 "ALICE BRADY RETURNS TO THE THEATRE GUILD; Will Act Role of Lavinia in Eugene O'Neill's Trilogy, 'Mourning Becomes Electra.'”
But is this the *same* Alice Brady?
October 27, 1931 "Strange Images of Death in Eugene O'Neill's Masterpiece. Miss Brady, as Lavinia, has one of the longest parts ever written. None of her neurotic dramatics in the past has prepared us for the demoniac splendor of her Lavinia. She speaks in an ominous, full voice that only once or twice breaks into the splintery diffusion of artificial climaxes. Lavinia has recreated Miss Brady into a majestic actress."
November 29, 1933 "FILM STARS FIGHT FRAUDS.; . . . Alice Brady,. . . ran afoul of a fake perfume merchant who sold them at low cost what was purported to be costly perfume smuggled into the country. It was scented water."
Maybe that’s why she couldn’t pay her taxes??
June 13, 1935 "ALICE BRADY IN TAX SUIT.; State Files Warrant for $1,549 Levy on Four Years' Income."
September 19, 1936 "FACE OUSTER BY EQUITY; 25 Film Actors Warned to Join Screen Guild in Four Weeks." Alice Brady is one of the actors that faces ousting by Actors Equity is she doesn't join the Screen Actors Guild.
>>Trainwreck Marriage
May 21, 1921 "James Crane loses suit. Fails to recover . . . $132,000 in rentals from propety inherited from his former wife, Mrs. Blanche Stittler-Crane, who was killed by a fall from a window of a New York hotel in December 1916."
November 15, 1921 "ALICE BRADY SUES CRANE FOR DIVORCE; . . . The suit was based on alleged misconduct last Summer with a woman unknown to Mrs. Crane"
March 16, 1922 "ALICE BRADY A MOTHER; Son Born Ten Days Before Divorce Would Become Final."
Alice filed for divorce in August of 1921 after returning from Europe – not definite, but easily could have been another man’s son…
June 18, 1927 "PISTOL A STAGE PROPERTY.; Crane, Actor, Acquitted When He Explains Its Presence.”
Creepy – glad she dumped him.
>>
May 31, 1931 "GHOSTS IN THE CRADLE OF THE MOVIES; Fort Lee, Once the Centre of Film Work, Is Now a Ruined Shell, Thanks to Hollywood and Herbert Hoover GHOSTS WHERE THE MOVIES WERE CRADLED Fort Lee, Once the Centre of Film Work in America, Is Today a Ruined Shell, Thanks to Hollywood and Herbert Hoover. . . . World-Peerless started with William A. Brady as director general - or some such title - and a reputed salary of $150,000 a year."
And finally – a private funeral for someone that was a very public lady.
From NYT Obituary for Alice Brady -
"For several years Miss Brady had been in poor health. Three weeks ago her father, William A. Brady, the theatrical producer, brought her to New York from Hollywood where her last work had been to act with Henry Fonda in "The Young Mr. Lincoln." . . .
Mr. Brady announced that the funeral services would be private and that no public announcement would be mae of them. Burial will be in Sleepy Hollow Cemetary, Tarrytown, NY."
Ed ...
ReplyDeleteYou have done the most amazing and thorough research throughout this Timmy mystery. Whether it's Alice Brady or not still remains to be seen, but I, for one, am fascinated by this woman thanks to the information you have been able to dig up. I vote you for the MVP award!
Ed, nice post. I still don't know WHY but I'll get on the Alice Brady bandwagon.
ReplyDeleteI'm grateful for the Alice Brady info, too, but I can't help thinking that EL has ruled her out. He mentioned last night, on this board, that someone was dismissed too quickly. That someone isn't Alice Brady, obviously, since she's the final Oscar winner that we haven't eliminated.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Alice was Shimmy. I don't know why, but I just don't.
I've been wrong many times before, so... I'll fix myself an dinner of crow with some fava beans and a nice chianti.
Hi Susan,
ReplyDeleteThank you! And complete agreement about Alice Brady being interesting. Before this blind we thought she was just "the kooky Mom in 'My Man Godfrey'" - who knew she had such an colorful past? Someone ought to write a bio on her and the Brady family - with the producer Dad, the actress step-mom and the bizarre death of Wm Brady, Jr. - that family has the fixins for a really neat showbiz bio!
Wow, Ed -- I'm impressed with all of your research! Fantastic!! I find it interesting that "January 8, 1922 "ALICE BRADY STRICKEN.; Taken Ill With Appendicitis and The Playhouse Closed. . . . ten minutes before the curtain was to go up . . . After Miss Brady has recovered she will return to the movies."
ReplyDeleteand 2 months later she gave birth.
I guess it could happen...
Interesting about the leading man, though, Austin Fairman.
The two Alice Bradys are so different. There is no denying that they are two different people.
I keep bringing up the noses, but it's true and it's the one identifying factor (for me) that make AB Timmy plausible. Not just the pointy tip but the sides of the nostrils are just completely different.
Also the fact that AB admitted to faking her high, shrill voice in "Godfrey."
DIMES!:
ReplyDeleteThat was an incredible amount of Sherlocking! Nice job! By the way, I love your "WHY".
Hey Ed,
ReplyDeleteway to kick a$$
Maybe they should skip timmy and make a movie about alice starring lindsey ;)
ED!:
ReplyDeleteSorry, got a bit confused. If I were wearing a hat, I'd take it off for you!
For all you on the Alice Brady bandwagon, where's the identifying scar?
ReplyDeleteHi Grace,
ReplyDeleteYes - we had the same thought! Appendicitis and then birth two months later??
We thought maybe we had something really strong pointing Alice faking an illness.
But at NIH it says: "Many women who develop appendicitis during pregnancy do not experience the classic symptoms. Pregnant women who experience pain on the right side of the abdomen need to contact a doctor. Women in their third trimester are most at risk."
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/appendicitis/index.htm
TO ED
ReplyDeleteYOU ARE QUITE WELCOME FOR THE NY TIMES TIP. YOU COPIED IT WORD FOR WORD. WHO IS THAT DEEP RESEARCH?
JUST ASKING!
PAZNORMI - yep at one point you could just say "you weren't interested in women" and that was enough, however, maybe "gays weren't accepted even in Hollywood" and then laws came into effect that made it necessary to hide until 1967.
ReplyDeleteHi David,
ReplyDeleteYup, agreed. Where *is* the scar. We've done freeze frame and zoom image on a number of stills for Alice. We can't find it - just can't.
The one area that appears to be odd in a few different films is what could be a burn mark under her right ear.
Would a burn mark count as a scar?
Even if yes, that mark on Alice sort of shifts (sometimes it seems like a scar, other times it's just a shadow...) and in that area could easily be a shadow and also easily covered with makeup.
The scar...the scar...
Thanks, Maureen, but I can't take the sleuthing credit - it's Ed who posted that amazing research.
ReplyDeleteInstead of what I should be doing, which is working, I've been poring through that Bogart book excerpt that I knew I shouldn't start reading because I had to finish.
There's a photo of Alice in that book as one of Bogart's conquests, but since he slept with anyone it doesn't really answer the gender question. I keep hoping I'll come across some tidbit about some no name that will miraculously turn out to be Timmy.
Would like the new lilo movie, but not on the AB bandwagon and never have been.
ReplyDeleteI've been sucked into the whirling miasma that is this mystery - looking at AB pictures and another thing which strikes me is her hairline in her later pics is most definitely widow's peak - but not in younger images...hmmm
ReplyDeleteI was on the Alice bandwagon for a long time, but no one could explain what the other awards were that she had won "regularly" for the role prior to the Oscars.
ReplyDeleteTo me, Margaret Rutherford is the only one who fits that part of the clue.
Janele, STW is funnier if you don't have one.
ReplyDeleteThat Alice Brady stuff is some good gossip. She sounds like a mess. Both of her.
Here is a list of actors in the IMDB that were born in the northeast, and died in 1985. I used a script to gather this info. If I get time, I'll do 1980-1984, although AIDS deaths were very low in numbers between 1983-1980, and I would not suspect he'd come from there.
ReplyDeleteWalter Merrill
George Holmes
Alexander Scourby
Scott Brady
Kent Smith
Henry Hunter
Mickey Shaughnessy
Eddie Parks
Grant Williams
George Grandee
John Quillan
Paul Bryar
Mickey Simpson
Sidney Clute
Morton Downey
William Bramley
Walter Crisham
Phil Silvers
Alan Foster
Jimmy Ritz
Sam Gilman
Edward Tierney
Ricky Nelson
Nicholas Colasanto
John Whitney
Ben Hall
This blind item is turning me into an alcoholic. After work I ride my horse, come home and make a drink with dinner while I catch up here... then another drink... ugh.
ReplyDeleteNo new hints tonight? I'm like a junkie jonesing for a fix, sitting here hitting refresh constantly. Sigh.
ReplyDeleteWonder why we didn't get an update today??
ReplyDeleteHey, there, Ed:
ReplyDeleteOr maybe appendicitis was code for pregnancy back then. Being in a "delicate condition" was never mentioned in those days, I believe.
Are the contents of this book going to be part of the big weird reveal that Margaret Rutherford is Shimmy?
ReplyDelete"The Peninsula of Lies: A Case of Sex Reassignment, Taboo Love and a Mysterious Birth (Mar., $25) by Edward Ball chronicles the life of Charleston socialite Dawn Langley Simmons, born Gregory Langley Hall, who was adopted by the English actress Margaret Rutherford and raised as a boy, before having a sex-change operation, marrying a black man and giving birth to their daughter."
At this point I think that if AB is not pegged as Shimmy, we'll all know that there's still a story there... something was going on with AB whether or not she was Shimmy. Perhaps we have uncovered a new Shimmy or AB's alter ego!!
ReplyDeletehey ENT-
ReplyDeletePlease dont forget everyone who has been working on this BI since Labor Day--- now matter how much you post on present day celebs- we who are caught in the old hollywood time warp need closure to this BI- its too late to for it to just fade away you know??
Grace said:
ReplyDelete"Or maybe appendicitis was code for pregnancy back then. Being in a "delicate condition" was never mentioned in those days, I believe."
It certainly wasn't discussed in those days..but I have a hard time believing someone who was that pregnant would have still been going onstage nightly..and no one could tell.
Poznaznorml said...
ReplyDelete"However - as far as Timmy pretending to be a woman to evade the draft - couldn't he have just told him that he was a homosexual? Was that enough back them to prevent them from drafting someone?"
that is not something someone would have freely admitted, especially to the government,in those days. It could have gotten you locked away in a mental institution or prison and branded as a sex offender.
Good point, Mullally, about going onstage every night at the 7th month of pregnancy.
ReplyDeleteWow, Ed, kudos on compiling all that research.
ReplyDeleteEd, that post was great!
ReplyDeleteSince I've been obsessing over the text of ENT's clues, certain phrases keep coming back to haunt me -- the most recent being "There's even a little bonus mystery at play"....
This, in a nutshell, tells me it's Alice Brady because the mystery of who accepted her Oscar (Timmy) will be solved along with the main blind item.
As to the who, what, when, where, how & why of it....well, I need to sleep on it. But that one hint has pretty much cemented it for me.
I haven't gone through all of these comments but I'm going to reiterate my support for my original guess, Fay Bainter. She started acting in her 40s. She won AA early on in her career for Jezebel (before awards were televised) and kept working (perhaps her skin disease didn't act up because she wasn't under pressure without the awards being televised) and was again nominated late in her career for Children's Hour. She didn't win but her career did dwindle signifiantly afterwards, never appearing in another movie. She worked with Hepburn in Quality Street. I'm sticking with her. I feel it.
ReplyDeleteFay worked far too long after her Oscar win to be Timmy/Shimmy.
ReplyDeleteP.S. The Children's Hour is about lesbians.
ReplyDeleteENT never said that she quit after her first win, maybe it was the "second."
ReplyDeleteOn the date of the reveal, Ent might just repost Ed's comment above and say, "he said it better than I could" and just let it go like that, like he did for the reveal of Dominique Swain.
ReplyDeleteRe: Standingbear
ReplyDeleteDon't you think if it was Timmy up there, accepting the award as Timmy, for Shimmy, SOMEBODY would notice that they look a lot alike? And SOMEBODY would recognize him as Timmy...
OMG, Ana...
ReplyDeleteLOL!!
....whatever you do, just don't take up drunk horseback riding...
:D
Marianne said...
ReplyDeleteits too late to for it to just fade away you know??
I think interest is beginning to fade. Everyone is still curious to see if it is a real story, but the number of people guessing has gone down. You can only guess so much. The fun in guessing is to figure it out, and no one matches this BI. It is like fishing without any bait on your hook.
Rachel said...
ReplyDelete"ENT never said that she quit after her first win, maybe it was the "second.""
that doesn't really make sense...Timmy goes on the road for a couple of years perfecting his Shimmy act..then comes back to Hollywood and making films as Shimmy.
Fay had a career that spanned 4 decades....but the only award win she had was in 1938 (actually handed out in 1939). Plus she has no credit 2 or more years prior to her Oscar winning role where she had the lead role, let alone the lead role opposite a closeted A-List actor of the time.
Even jumping ahead to your theory of the "second" win..her only acting credits prior to that time, for almost 10 years, were television roles, mostly on anthology series.
I wonder if the AB contingent nailed it, and Ent. said that thing about the very good possibility who was discarded too early just to keep us interested and busy? I know it took some wind out of the BI's sails when he notted KK....so maybe? I have no idea anymore...grasping @ straws....
ReplyDeleteI think the reason this has slowed down is -- if this is Alice Brady, and Timmy is nobody we know, who really cares? It's so, so long ago.
ReplyDeleteI think the reveal will be real letdown if it's Alice Brady or Marie Dressler.
Now, if it was Joan Crawford, or Greta Garbo, that would be fascinating.
But it ain't.
Speaking for Marie Dressler
ReplyDeletewinning ´31 is in the 50 years timeframe. 80-50=´30. Plus she also won more awards who maybe are not listed or/and not known anymore.
if like suggested, timmy was born around 1905 or so to make it to the ´80s, this would be no problem with Dresslers timeline, since beiing faked it can be discarded.
The only factor we have here is that Timmy had a skin condition. This is not like the most here assume some red lines or other optical stuff. It rather was a premature ageing of the skin (like an autoimmune disease) wich could result in hangings. Later on maybe some coloured marks would come in too. But this would make a young timmy look like beiing far older than he really was.
The loose skin could easily hide the adams apple.
The beauty idols of that time were young stars with clean faces, you know those types. Timmy wouldnt fit into none of them ergo he would get no roles. Has nothing to do with being gay since he could do the same like other closeted ones. They just didnt had any use for timmy. So he just sings. A nice actor with a good voice had all doors open back then.
So he becomes the older Shimmy(Dressler) who for the appearance must be born early. Plus Dressler has the said scar.
The Haines mentoring - could be on acting because he was primarely a singer. could be on gay behaviour. could be on what do i do if my carreer is over. or all of them. Again this could be just between them and without being printed in his bio. Need to remember that even if living openly in that times, he did not tell all. The risk would be too high. Haines was smart enough to keep a balance but not to commit a PR suicide for his life outside the movies. So if Timmy was not mentioned, it was jut that he was not mentioned. Because we know that he mentored timmy. We dont know if timmy hadn´t some other names too, given his need for cover, and so beiing named in the book without our knowledge.
The weight - didnt we had christian bale, tom hanks and a lot of other stars going from fat to slim? Why should this be a modern invention?
"Timmy was ready to go as Shimmy" - rehearsed movements, voice, gear handling and why not, gaining weight.
Dressler fits perfectly. Just finding the Timmy - bad actor, good singer, is
oops, the last part is gone
ReplyDelete...is hard to find.
More research should go into William A. Brady.
ReplyDeleteHere's a few thoughts (and some crazy... but everyone thought I was crazy about the Hepburn thing and it turned out true!)
1. ENT has ruled basically ruled out every main guess we have made (Hull, Kendall, Holliday) except for Brady.
2. Ed's comment, "August 4, 1922 "Alice Brady's Car Stolen and Found. Rochester, NY Aug 3. - . . . following a chase through four counties by motorcycle officers and State troopers. . . In the car was found a quantity of men's clothing."
3. Everyone is wondering if it's the same Alice Brady. I thought it was crazy at first. But think about this...
William A. Brady was a millionaire... until he lost EVERYTHING in 1929 because of the stock market crash. People then were so desperate enough that they were committing suicide. What if Mr. Brady was desperate enough to create a daughter?
Now get this, the year after he lost his fortune, he was basically pimping out Alice Brady. Then, MAGICALLY Mr. Brady makes a play (with secured money?! maybe pay off?) which brings back in the dough, along with his daughter.
eh. I could be crazy... but you never know. ha. Hepburn was a transvestite and insestual for all we know.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@ deja.
ReplyDeleteonce a millionaire, always a millionaire. He still had his connections and friends to secure something for him. Before the crash, he was doing stuff successfully.
i just wonder, why take a gay man to play the daughter? The risk of the outing was still to big, back then. Why then would the daughter of the media mogul live in a flat with jj wife and some other. Why not in the family compound?
I'm in the UK so it's the morning here and I can't believe I have got up and ENT hasn't posted a hint. There are a lot of people who have put hours - days...hell even WEEKS of research into this thing.
ReplyDeleteHow long can it take to write 2 sentences !
Hi guys! Just another long time lurker, first-time poster here...
ReplyDeleteI'm grasping at straws I know, I know.I just can't take the suspence any longer!Now, I know this is far fetched,but do you guys think there's any way that the award could be a palme d'or (cannes film festival).Christ, I don't even know when they started televising them, but I'm desperate y'all.
I swear I've read ALL the thousands of comments regarding Timmy/Shimmy, but I simply cannot remember if a palme d'or best actress/ best supporting actress award was ever brouht up.This timmy/shimmy business has made my head ache and my vision blurry.
Ignore me if you think it can't be the Palme d'ors, I just felt like we'd hit a wall with the Oscars and the GG's.
I think that the only actress on Calla's list who also won a Palme is Simone Signoret in 1959 for Room at the Top.
Enty-baby, please reveal!!!
love,
happyteppy
Marie Dressler cannot work. She was on Broadway in 1892 and was in film by 1910. Unless we're going to suggest that there were two Marie Dresslers, which from pictures is obvious there weren't, she simply cannot work with the timeline that EL gave us.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I think that EL suggested that Shimmy was such a convincing female, no one was the wiser. Marie Dressler definitely had some mannish features - - and she could hardly be called "slight".
I hope that EL gives us another meaty clue, or does the reveal because this is driving me crazy.
Teppy, the Palme D'or is not an award given to various individuals; it doesn't have multiple categories. It is a one-off award to the best film overall, and goes to the director. It just doesn't fit with this story.
ReplyDeleteTHIS IS A COMPLETE LOAD OF BS
ReplyDeleteDO YOU REALLY THINK THAT ENT WOULD KNOW SOMETHING LIKE THIS ??
THERE WILL BE NO MORE UPDATES ON THIS AND NO REVEAL ... SAD SAD SADDO.
Well if he doesn't reveal, then he will be losing a lot of readers including myself.
ReplyDeleteNeopold, did you join just to say that? Who is the sad person here? Hmm.
JUST KEEPING A THEME GOING ;) ...
ReplyDelete"raised as a boy, before having a sex-change operation, marrying a black man and giving birth to their daughter."
ReplyDeleteMTF's can't give birth.
I did check the Cannes Film Festival out and the best actress award goes back a while. (No supporting actress award.)
ReplyDeleteThe best actress has invariably gone to the usual suspects, big names that don't fit into the Shimmy pattern at all.
Maybe someone has guessed the right answer. I can't help thinking that this has something to do with Katharine Hepburns brother Tom - don't know why.
ReplyDeleteTeppy, welcome! I don't think Cannes is televised here in the states, is it? I think the award has to have been televised here.
ReplyDeleteEd, ONCE AGAIN, great job flushing out all the information! You're great at researching things.
Helena, if the AB contingent nailed it and EL is just throwing red herrings out there to throw everyone off track, that would be terrible. After all the hard work everyone has put in, to cast doubt on their guesses just to keep them busy? Low, that would be low!
David, I don't think most people feel it will be a real let down unless it's Garbo or Joan Crawford. Most of us figured early on that it wasn't going to be someone who had a high profile like that, it would have to be someone of lesser fame. I just want another hint at this point and I think most of the discussion has fallen off because we haven't gotten one.
I thought for sure it was Alice Brady if it wasn't Kay Kendall, but I'm not on board with the notion of two AB's, so at this point I'm really unsure about the whole thing.
I think we may find out that it's someone all together different and EL will tell us that when he mean x (meaning the BIG award or didn't work too long after winning, etc.) he really meant y, which threw us all off. How shitty will THAT be?
Delco Dave, EL explains all of that in his initial post about Timmy. Very few people knew, but his friend has hinted at this several times and EL finally asked him to share the story. His friend's wife was a roommate of Timmy's at one point when he was playing a woman.
ReplyDeleteKelli, Anna Magnani was elmiinated because she worked for so long after her win.
Was Alice Brady in a lot of musicals?? I read Ed's post and didn't find any. Isn't the main pont of Timmy that he had a great voice and was in the chorus in most of his performances?
ReplyDeleteJust throwing things out there.
ReplyDeleteThen something happened: Miss Oberon snapped, her role of actress became a bit of wet Kleenex, and she began to sob. ‘There is something I have never made public before,’ she murmured. ‘I think people should know the hell I have suffered because of it.’ Miss Oberon pointed to her right cheek. ‘Here was a disaster to add to all my other disasters.’
I craned forward, hungry for further information. ‘During one illness, terrible spots broke out on my face. It was devastating. They left awful scars. For a time I was ashamed to go out.’
Miss Oberon invited me to inspect the damage, but studio make-up had hidden the offending marks with a sound camouflage job. She rose, led me to the bathroom and rubbed at her right cheek. ‘Look — do you see the scars?’ Suddenly there was a diaphanous sheen over what had been mustard-thick make up. A suggestion of tiny scars was evident, but hardly what an average woman would worry about — a trace of old acne. But Miss Oberon seemed obsessed with the damage.
im now wondering about jennifer jones?
ReplyDeleteJanele, I don't know if Alice Brady was in musicals. I think Timmy's career was different than Shimmy's, so I'm not sure we'd be looking for someone in musicals in order to find the actress.
ReplyDeleteMelster, the problem I have with Merle Oberon is that she didn't win any award and was married four times. I can see one person marrying a man playing a woman...maybe...but four? I can't get my head around that one!
Gossiptank, if you check www.imdb.com, you'll see she's still alive and worked for thirty years following her win, so it's not her. She also had three marriages, so that would be another question mark, I think. One marriage was to bigshot David O. Selznick. JJ can't be Timmy!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could edit comments. More information on Dawn Langely:
ReplyDeleteApparently she did get pregnant and have a baby, because she never was a man in the first place.
"There’s more. Mrs. Simmons, or Gordon Hall, claimed that she was born with an adrenal abnormality that caused the female genitals to appear male at birth. Consequently, she was raised as a boy. After moving to America and settling in Charleston, South Carolina, she underwent a sex change operation and then a year later she married John Paul Simmons, an African-American sculptor and mechanic. According to the story, it seems her biracial marriage in 1969 caused more of a stir in Charleston than the fact that she lived 30 years of her life as a man."
twisted sister...
ReplyDelete..yeah that would just be mean of him, no?
Jennifer Jones supposedly works on the board of directors at the Norton Simon museum...
It's in Pasadena, I'm on the east cost...I have half a mind to call and see if I can speak to a representative of hers...maybe I'll say I'm doing some research for a project (not a TOTAL lie) and I'd like to maybe interview her? Even if I get her assistant or a voicemail, it'll prove she exists, no?
Just another thing to throw out there:
ReplyDeleteEnt said that Shimmy made up her background and that whatever she said was accepted as fact and is still used today. If that's the case, then she could easily have said that she was married, or gave birth, and that was never true. She could easily have made up a husband, especially if he was some no-name that wasn't in the industry - or could have said that she had a child when it was really adopted. Maybe?
Finally caught up! And did we check everyone here: http://www.nyfcc.com/awards.php?year=1935
ReplyDeleteI'm obsessed and have read just about every comment! What fun!!
You all are fantastic researchers and web-weavers of what-ifs that I cannot possibly have any value-added remark. I have found Old Hollywood to be very intriguing and that the major players seem to be a very interconnected group. I offer this bit of trivia I ran across:
ReplyDeleteHis life started to turn towards a career in the arts when a neighbors
daughter, Alice Brady whose
father William Brady ran the Playhouse Theatre on 48th street, got him
hired as an office boy.
However Brady is reported to have seen little potential in Bogart, but
did give him his first real
motion picture job as a director of the final scenes of the film 'Life'
for World Films.
Bogart was quickly relieved of his duties, by Brady, when an automobile
chase scene resulted in an accident.
He was then appointed company manager for the touring production of 'The
Ruined Lady', and understudied
some of the roles.
Alice Brady is responsible for getting Bogart his first acting job in
her 1922 play 'Drifting' http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.movies.people/browse_thread/thread/d3529ce440a1109a/f2069274c6deeb9c?lnk=st&q=Alice+Brady&rnum=26&hl=en#f2069274c6deeb9c
How could Timmy (unknown and unaccredited) have gotten himself into this circle? Because of his love with the closeted (only to the public) A-lister? Because the charade wasn't on the players themselves? Because they knew and supported the situation because they were against that which created it?
I sure home JJ writes his memoirs because too many of Old Hollywood has taken their life to the grave with them and all this searching has REALLY piqued my interest.
Helena, I just looked at the website for the Norton Simon Museum and see Jennifer Jones listed on the Board of Trustees. Find it here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nortonsimon.org/about/board.aspx
Ali, EXACTLY!!! That's why I said yesterday we should ignore the bio's completely and just eliminate anyone we know for a fact worked after 1985 or is still living today, and see what we come up with. The only thing I would believe is if they were married several times or to someone famous, I think that would be hard to fake. (look at me - I was a KK fan and she was married to someone famous!)
_-_=_, I LOVE your enthusiasm!!! I think that's badly needed here with some of the interest waning.
Yep - I've lost my Mojo.
ReplyDeleteMelster - perfect way to put it. ME TOO!
ReplyDeleteReally, though, there's no point in rehashing the same research and speculation over and over again. We need more info....
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's time for us to vote on who we think Shimmy is.
ReplyDeleteOne vote per person...no alternative choices. Just one choice. And I will tabulate the results 24 hours from now if ENT does not give us more clues by that time.
OK? Please pick just one name.
------------
I vote Margaret Rutherford.
Hi all, I've been a long time reader. This is my first time post. First I want to thank Twisted sister, Ed, and Chenofan for all the info, keeping us on track, and providing humor when needed. Much appreciated.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Shimmy, I remember that Margaret Rutherford was eliminated awhile back, but I don't remember why. Does anyone else remember why?
I was on the KK bandwagon but we know where that went. And now I feel it must be AB with some strange twist that maybe we figured, or maybe not.
ReplyDeleteAnd let me say this - Every time I look at the old pictures I think how the snouts look so different today with all the surgery. Why, these old pictures look like …. Me. How strange!! So I guess I look like a man and need rhinoplasty!!!
I would be still laughing at KK’s big honkin’ feet if it wasn’t for the comment about saggy tit wrinkles! [Memo to self: check for saggy tit wrinkles tonight after neck exercises.]
Where did my post go??
ReplyDeleteMy vote is with Margaret Rutherford.
But my favorite theory BY FAR has been the "Marisa Pavan/Pier Angeli/one of them was a fella" theory. I would really love that one to be true.
My favorite theory is that Mae West (or whoever) was killed somehow and one of her friends stepped in to replace her. I don't care if it really happened - what a fantastic Hollywood legend. I love this stuff.
ReplyDeleteI have said this before, I really don't think it was Margaret Rutherford, she has a strong background in Britain. Her father was imprisoned for murder in Broadmoor. Her cousin was Tony Benn, who was a well known politician. She made her stage debut in 1925, in the Old Vic in London.
ReplyDeleteI doubt Timmy would come to Britain in the early 20s, master an English accent and make up this background.
Perhaps I'm totally wrong, but I don't think Rutherford is the right answer. I'm more inclined to believe it was Maggie Mcnamara, even though she never won an award.
Thanks Cherrie_102. I remembered Margaret had been eliminated, but after researching, cross-checking research, reading everyoone else's comments, and everything else I couldn't remember why.
ReplyDeleteI know I'm wasting my vote, but... Vera-Ellen.
ReplyDeleteCherrie - I understand what you're saying, but it seems that there are problems with every possibility we've come up with. I was just voting because I wanted to pick someone. Sheesh.
ReplyDeletegoing back to all the talk about roger davis, him being invited to william haines housewarming party, someone said he lived at william haines house at one point and the fact that info on him is rare because he is usually always in the background of the great names on stage etc. I also found him credited here: very close to the name timmy. interesting.
ReplyDeleteA Social Celebrity (1926) as Tenny
Okay, fine! *pout* No hint, so I'll put in a (tentative) vote.
ReplyDeleteAs of now, based on what we know to this point, I would have to vote for good ol' AB- Alice Brady.
I still can't fathom the whole switching places thing, but as far as what we've come up with so far I can't think of anyone that fits any better.
Still intrigued by the "early guess pushed away too easily" (paraphrasing) line...
*sigh* But since we're 'voting'- I have to stick with what we have now. Team AB
But if ENT gets on here and says he's won the lottery or gotten a big inheritance and is moving away and this is it... and doesn't reveal... well, I have the feeling there will be calls for a lynch mob!
Has anyone seen this quote from Mary Arbenz form the Eugene O'Neill Theater?? Apparently, she worked with Alice Brady back in the day and this is one thing she shared about her...
ReplyDelete"But I DO remember Alice Brady and one of the things she used to do [laughs]. IL was very hot, and of course the theatres didn't have air conditioning. She would open her dress backstage--we wore those heavy clothes that had been designed for the show--and she would open the top. And here were these bosoms all hanging out! It didn't make any difference who was there, who was coming in from the outside to visit with her."
But if ENT gets on here and says he's won the lottery or gotten a big inheritance and is moving away and this is it... and doesn't reveal... well, I have the feeling there will be calls for a lynch mob!
ReplyDelete"He" can run but he can't hide from such expert researchers such as us.
Murphyzlaws, thanks for the shout out and glad you've left lurkdom!
ReplyDeleteI'm joining Dragon Slayer in the pouting arena. EL is playing with us! We need to protest. Where are some signs?!
I have this sneaky suspicion we're going to find out it's not AB either, but I'm still on the AB train now that KK has been eliminated.
I just don't know anymore. We need more hints!
Now see, Janele, this just makes me think even more strongly that it's NOT AB either!
ReplyDeleteDamn, who are we overlooking?
Oh, sure Janele... right after I vote for AB you bring out the quote about Alice Brady and her flaunting her bosom!
ReplyDeleteWell, unless Timmy was sporting some MAJOR moobs, I'm guessing that would eliminate AB... if the quote was true and not just something planted. Could Mary Arbenze be "one of the 10" who knew??
I'm so lost! I figured ENT didn't post a Timmy/Shimmy hint last night because he was too caught up in his work. ;-) Now I figure he is just toying with us because today he has posted lots of stuff, but still no hints or anything else about Timmy/Shimmy.
ReplyDeleteThis is a bit off-topic, but am I the only one who remembers Ent saying he would start posting particularly funny/ entertaining readers' comments from time to time?? ... Cuz I move to nominate SUGAREE's comment from yesterday morning! Here it is:
ReplyDelete"Oh, my Rainer theory is so full of holes that Marie Dressler and Kay Kendall could swagger through it and wouldn't even have to duck. But it's my theory. I'm going to nurture it and care for it and call it George."
BAH! ... I'd actually printed out a bunch of comments last night so I could read them in bed (insert punchline here) and when I got to Sugaree's post, I laughed so hard I almost cried! ... O.K., sleep-deprivation may have played a minor role in my hysterics, but I still say she(?) deserves special kudos for that one! Do I hear a second??
Oh, and while I'm handing out CDAN AWARDS, I think TWISTED deserves one for always making so much damn SENSE! I swear, whenever things get a little too wacked around here, (and I'm almost about to break down and actually post a "clarification" of some kind), Twisted moves in and SAVES the day with some wonderfully LOGICAL comment that gets me off the hook! ...Must be that no-nonsense Chicago thinking at work, right Twisted? ;-)
I now declare the floor open for nominations...
http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/library/faking-it.shtml
ReplyDeleteif anyone is interested this article talks about gay actors, a lor form old hollywood, mentions a roman navarro. he was never married as the next quote says, maybe he was the closted a listed at the time?
Ramon Novarro was less lucky. Declining to marry the silent star slipped into secondary roles in the “talkies” and then complete obscurity before his untimely death at the hands of a hustler.
http://ehrensteinland.com/htmls/library/faking-it.shtml
ReplyDeleteif anyone is interested this article talks about gay actors, a lor form old hollywood, mentions a roman navarro. he was never married as the next quote says, maybe he was the closted a listed at the time?
Ramon Novarro was less lucky. Declining to marry the silent star slipped into secondary roles in the “talkies” and then complete obscurity before his untimely death at the hands of a hustler.
Here's another weird one from me !!
ReplyDeleteEvelyn Preer.
http://www.angelfire.com/jazz/ninamaemckinney/EvelynPreer.html
Would explain why the A-lister kept the relationship quiet perhaps. It might have been her voice overs in the movies that won the awards ?
I don't have an official guess but still think it has something to do with Katharine Hepburns brother Tom.
curious_cailyn:
ReplyDeleteI'll second those... but I wish you could sound to text here... cause that line from sugaree is so much better in the Abominal Snowman's voice... I picture him with Daffy Duck (wearing a t-shirt with "Sugaree's Theory" on it and saying his line, "I'm going to love it and pet it and call it George!"
I also like ana's comment:
Perhaps Garbo had moobs.
I don't know why, it just makes me giggle!
Janele said...
ReplyDelete"Was Alice Brady in a lot of musicals?? I read Ed's post and didn't find any. Isn't the main pont of Timmy that he had a great voice and was in the chorus in most of his performances?"
she was in her stage career..a decent amount of them anyway:
Sunny [Original, Musical, Comedy]
Performer: Alice Brady [Show Girl]
Sep 22, 1925 - Dec 11, 1926
Madame Pompadour [Original, Musical]
Performer: Alice Brady [Chorus]
Nov 11, 1924 - Jan 17, 1925
Dew Drop Inn [Original, Musical, Comedy]
Performer: Alice Brady [Ensemble];
Performer: Alice Brady [Marion Stanley]
The Yankee Princess [Original, Musical, Comedy]
Performer: Alice Brady [Ensemble]
Oct 2, 1922 - Dec 9, 1922
The Blushing Bride [Original, Musical, Comedy]
Performer: Alice Brady [Ensemble]
Feb 4, 1922 - Jun 10, 1922
The Love Letter [Original, Musical, Comedy]
Performer: Alice Brady [Marie]
Oct 4, 1921 - Oct 29, 1921
The Mikado [Revival, Musical, Operetta]
Performer: Alice Brady
Jun 29, 1912 - Jun 29, 1912
H.M.S. Pinafore [Revival, Musical, Operetta]
Performer: Alice Brady
Jun 27, 1912 - Jun 28, 1912
The Pirates of Penzance [Revival, Musical, Operetta]
Performer: Alice Brady
Jun 3, 1912 - Jun 26, 1912
Patience [Revival, Musical, Operetta]
Performer: Alice Brady [Lady Saphir]
May 6, 1912 - Jun 1, 1912
H.M.S. Pinafore [Revival, Musical, Operetta]
Performer: Alice Brady
May 29, 1911 - Jul 8, 1911
The Balkan Princess [Original, Musical]
Performer: Alice Brady [Olga]
Feb 9, 1911 - May 13, 1911
I don't know, Dragon, it may have been a plant. But I don't think this random woman would be one of the 10 total who knew. I'm telling you - we're missing something.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone researched the people I listed yesterday who starred in movies with Hepburn and dies in 1985? In that "Early years of Boagrt" bio, George Raft is mentioned and is described as having a slight build. Also, I looked him up in Google books, and apparently, he had a very limp handshake and was nothing like his onscreen persona. Can anyone do their magic and maybe see if this guy has anything to do with anything important?? I'm just not a good at the research as everyone else here.
Maybe he could be, by some slim chance, our Timmy. He started out as a dancer and chorus boy on Broadway, born in NY, died at 85 in 1980 of cancer. He was part of the bisexual, homosexual, heterosexual underworld of Hollywood too. Maybe the story of Timmy was known by some of the A-list stars? Maybe it had something to do with stciking it to the man, so to speak?? I dunno - I'm just trying to think outside the box.
Even if it's NOT Raft - if Hepburn adored Timmy and he was associated with Haines, maybe the WHY is that Timmy was a scheme cooked up as a big FU to the higher-ups in show biz.
Dragon Slayer said...
ReplyDelete"Oh, sure Janele... right after I vote for AB you bring out the quote about Alice Brady and her flaunting her bosom!
Well, unless Timmy was sporting some MAJOR moobs, I'm guessing that would eliminate AB... if the quote was true and not just something planted. Could Mary Arbenze be "one of the 10" who knew??"
the quote doesn't allude to them being particularlylarge..and Timmy could have had a condition known as gynecomastia.
Is this Anne Revere? If so she's totally my guess. I've never seen such a square jawed/broad shouldered woman.
ReplyDeletehttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1788627562752710336&q=%22Anne+Revere%22&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
Cailyn, ditto on that FUNNY remark made by Sugaree!!! I meant to comment on it yesterday but got sidetracked. Sugaree - you rule!!!
ReplyDeleteAnd thanks for the shout out. I don't know if it's because I'm from Chicago or because I work in research, but I do have a tendency to cut to the chase with things. Damn me, anyway!
Also - Raft was never married and was in a SLEW of movies. Just trying here :-)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/Wisecracker-William-Haines-Hollywoods-Openly/dp/0670871559
ReplyDeletelook at the books also bought by people who bought this book.. have we all been shopping lately., ramon novarro, william haines, kate hepburn, behind the sceens(about gay hollywood 1910-1969), seems like this group
I really don't want ENT to reveal just yet - I want more clues so we can root out Timmy/Shimmy. I have more research left in me yet.
ReplyDeleteMatty, Anne Revere died in 1990 after Timmy and worked for another thirty years after winning her award. I think that rules her out.
ReplyDeleteENT is still posting right now so maybe an update is about to be posted.
ReplyDeleteI agreed, I'd like more clues before the reveal too. This is fun. After the reveal I have no idea what I'm going to do with my time!
ReplyDeleteDragon Slayer wrote:
ReplyDelete"I also like ana's comment:
Perhaps Garbo had moobs.
I don't know why, it just makes me giggle!"
Me too! Doesn't that sound like something Jack on Will and Grace would say?
(Mayer took a savage dislike to actors who chafed under his need for ultimate control, and if you got on his bad side, he could and would destroy your career. Other victims included John Gilbert and Buster Keaton).
ReplyDeleteit stikes me that they why very well could be revenge, after all kate hepburn adored john gilbert and mayer detroyed his career too and for awhile hepburn was deemed box office posion. so what better revenge on mayer but to laugh behind his bak at not knowing his oscar winning actress was really a man?
Janele said...
ReplyDelete"Also - Raft was never married and was in a SLEW of movies. Just trying here :-)"
George Raft was married to Grayce Mulrooney from 1923 until her death in 1970.
Gynecomastia is not that common.
ReplyDeletePerhaps we should be looking for a slight, pale bald guy with moobs in chorus pictures from old musicals.
I'm voting for Alice Brady.
ReplyDeleteAnd re: that Dawn person who supposedly had a sex change AND a baby -- someone posted a link to a book about her yesterday or the day before, and it seemed to say that she really WAS a male to female. The baby came from a girlfriend of her husband, and there was some big ruse with Dawn showing up to sign the birth certificate and passing off the baby as her own. Intriguing stuff!
Dragon: I think I'm still a teensy bit tired, cuz my eyes just watered up at that Garbo moobs comment! :0 ... My "aural memory" sucks, tho, so now I'm off to hunt down a clip with the Abomionable Snowman's voice in it. (And I wonder why I can't get any @&*# work done!!)
ReplyDeleteTwisted: You're quite welcome. But as a fellow Chicago-ite, I say we stick with that as the reason! .. Either way, PLEASE keep it up - you're helping me keep my job...barely!
ana said:
ReplyDelete"Gynecomastia is not that common."
The condition is relatively common in adolescent boys, and 90% of the time symptoms disappear in a matter of months, or, as adolescence wanes, a few years later. But the remaining 10% are burdened with a social handicap that causes a deep and complex shame, and puts one's relationship with one's body at risk.
chenofan:
ReplyDeleteNo, I know they don't have to be HUGE (it wouldn't take Dolly Parton sized ones)-- I was just thinking if he was described as being "slight" that wouldn't indicate that he was carrying enough extra weight on him to start having the ol' man boobs thing going. Even small ones.
So, that's where that came from... I had to look up gynecomastia (I could infer what you were referring to, but wanted to know what it was exactly.) He could have had that, but what I read says it's most common in adolescence or with aging. I'm thinking Timmy didn't have boobs at all. I think that would be very inconvenient for man in that day and age. Especially if he were still slight of build. I mean, yeah- it would greatly help him being Shimmy, but he can't be in character 24/7 and that makes it difficult to walk around with enlarged mammaries. He was getting work before Shimmy - no big parts, but I think a man with boobs is not going to be too popular, even in the chorus. Okay- he wouldn't be popular in terms of casting... I'm sure a man with boobs would be popular in other areas of society!
But, I could be wrong and it would be interesting if that were true.
We'd have to change the quote to:
Perhaps Timmy had moobs.
But it doesn't make me giggle as much as the Garbo version! :-P
Honestly, the fact that we received no clue last night and nothing yet today is really getting me mad. It's making me think this whole thing was a waste of our time and that Ent is running scared.
ReplyDeleteSugaree- U are too funny! Thank you for making me laugh – it has been one of those never ending days already and I needed that.
ReplyDeleteCouple of questions for everyone:
1. I know EL said we might have thrown out a Shimmy too fast but we also know that Shimmy was correctly guessed in the very beginning – so my question is I see some new names and other names that have been guessed since that point in time when Shimmy was guessed correctly- so did I miss something and that is why we are back on K Hepburn, etc (put in whatever name u want that was not guessed early on? (All of the research is great though, I have learned so much about old Hollywood - thank u)
2. The why was close to correct the last time EL posted- the new why guesses are great HOWEVER should we circle the wagons and review the old whys because we were close then and maybe they just need some tweaking? Or have we somehow morphed them into what has been posted lately?
I am just a little confused so any help u can give is greatly appreciated.
PS: this all has been so much fun and is a nice way to escape the hectic week(s)!
A slight, pale, adolescent bald man with boobs and a poor self-esteem, then. Should be easy to find.
ReplyDeleteI'm not making fun of gynecomastia - I recognize it's a big deal, but I don't think it really has that much bearing on our Shimmy, because it would probably be difficult for Timmy to get roles as a man with breasts.
ana said...
ReplyDelete"A slight, pale, adolescent bald man with boobs and a poor self-esteem, then. Should be easy to find.
I'm not making fun of gynecomastia - I recognize it's a big deal, but I don't think it really has that much bearing on our Shimmy, because it would probably be difficult for Timmy to get roles as a man with breasts."
The point is gynecomastia doesn't necessarily mean large woman sized boobs. Sometimes it's just enough that it would be just under an A cup..
and anything that small or even a little larger is very easy to bind either with compression garments or a good old fashioned Ace bandage.
Some people have C or D cup sized "moobs" and still have no problems making them disappear with a compression garment.
Holy heck, I have that book about Dawn Langley/Gordon Hall. It's a really good read. I forgot that Margaret Rutherford adopted her, or did Dawn just claim that she adopted her? At any rate, Margaret was a good friend to Dawn.
ReplyDeleteDawn claimed to have been born with ambiguous genitalia and finally sought surgery to correct her condition, after which she was able to give birth to a child. In reality, she was born a man and had full-blown reassignment surgery, after which she informally adopted her husband's illegitimate baby (paying off the mother's family) and altered a birth certificate. She insisted even to her daughter that she was the birth mother.
Thanks for being so appreciative of George, everyone.
Honestly, I think we're reaching here with this moobs conversation. Although I do love to say the word "moobs" :-)
ReplyDeleteCan't it just be a gay guy who was really good at playing a woman, and NOT some scheme to prove Alice Brady was Shimmy by giving her man boobs? I'm telling you, it's gotta be a BIT easier than this whole concocted theory of Timmy having, not only a skin problem, an identity crisis and AIDS, but now we have to pile a disease that gives him moobs onto this whole thing.
I'm just cranky b/c we haven't goten a clue and I'm honestly starting to lose faith.
I think Alice Brady is out.
ReplyDeleteGeorge Raft ran with Bugsy Siegal and the mob...if he was a closeted gay man, he was REALLY closeted. I don't think it's him.
ReplyDeleteI believe it's Shirley Booth. She won an Oscar in 1952, was a musical star as well (Tree Grows in Brooklyn). Her AA came for COME BACK LITTLE SHEBA (SH as in Sheba and SH in Shirley). Opposite Burt Lancaster! Did HAZEL on TV but TV doesn't expose you like film. Recently died. Larger than life personality. It seems to fit.
ReplyDeleteWell, gogo, if you read the early years of Humphrey Bogart book exerpt online, it talks about the whole Hollywood underworld - and George Raft was in the midst of all of that. So, I don't think it would be so far-fetched for him to kept that type of life on the down-low. Not saying it's Raft, but still.
ReplyDeleteThanks for playin, Joseph - Shirley got ruled out last week.
ReplyDeleteJoseph, she doesn't really fit because 1) as you said, she recently died, and she couldn't live longer than Timmy, and 2) she worked way too long after her win. EL said if you see someone on imdb who worked for several years after winning their award, you'd have to rule them out.
ReplyDeletejanele said:
ReplyDeleteI'm telling you, it's gotta be a BIT easier than this whole concocted theory of Timmy having, not only a skin problem, an identity crisis and AIDS, but now we have to pile a disease that gives him moobs onto this whole thing.
LOL -- I know... this lack of hints is causing delirium and we're leading ourselves astray. Meanwhile, ENT Is sitting behind the computer laughing and laughing at all the comments knowing the solution is not only easier than this... but ALREADY MENTIONED.
How frustrating! Throw us a bone, ENT.
*off to pout*
JosephTura said...
ReplyDelete"I believe it's Shirley Booth. She won an Oscar in 1952, was a musical star as well (Tree Grows in Brooklyn)."
EL has already said it's NOT shirley Booth on September 5th:
http://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2007/09
/timmy-hint-for-tonight.html
I posted the same list I made above- with ENT's original post plus all the hints and NOTS included- on the CDAN message board:
ReplyDeletehttp://p068.ezboard.com/fcrazydaysandnightsfrm9.showMessage?topicID=94.topic&index=9
It's a good review of all the "facts" and hints and nots and also good for people that joined late. I'll update the post *if* ENT ever gives us more hints!!
oops, sorry- I thought it was clickable... try again, or you can cut and paste (sorry for posting twice in a row- just trying to correct the post and there's not edit on this board!)
ReplyDeletehttp://p068.ezboard.com/fcrazydaysandnightsfrm9.showMessage?topicID=94.topic&index=9
Dragon Slayer - I love how you storm off to pout and then come back with really good stuff! I think EL isn't buying the pouting thing from us anymore, but I agree he's laughing his ass off alright!
ReplyDeleteI have finally broke my lurkdom.
ReplyDeleteHello everyone!!!
I want to nominate Dragon Slayer for a CDAN award, curious_cailyn. All that typing and his notes!!! Great job.
I posted on the EZ board MB but will throw it out over here also.
I read the KH bio and remember a man being in KH's early hollywood life that she adored and I think had a connection to Cukor.(Wm. Haines group possible too) I don't have the book anymore. Could someone help out with that.....or I am going to the library tonight.
Ok. I got frustrated. So I went down the list of Oscar winners for best actress/best supporting actress. I calculated how long each actress worked after her win. Period. Here's enty's quote:
ReplyDelete"Timmy the actress gave up acting very soon after winning the award, so when you look at IMDB and see an actress worked for many years after her win, the guess doesn't make any sense despite the fact that everything else fits. It's easy to make up biographies, but you can't hide the fact that this actress who is a popular guess was in so many movies after her win."
In the original post enty said:
"Timmy the award winning actress was having trouble finding work because of his condition and so he saw his career slowly work its way back down the ladder over the course of three or four years."
Ent states that IMDB was correct. On IMDB Shimmy should not have worked long after her win. I did not include voiceover work. Here are the actresses possible based PURELY on their acting work after their Oscar win:
1929 Mary Pickford (4 years)
1931 Marie Dressler (2 years)
1947 Loretta Young (6 years)
1954 Grace Kelly (2 years)
1937 Alice Brady (2 years)
1944 Ethel Barrymore (1 year)
That's all folks. If enty isn't lying, or fibbing somewhere- then these are the choices. Is enty being scandalous, and it really wasn't the Oscar that was won? Possible. I still wonder why he didn't specify it was an Oscar.
Was there another actress/actor who took over/reverted back to being Shimmy, so that would explain them acting for another 20 years after their oscar win? Nope. Read the quote. IMDB is used as a point of reference. Enty says it is not an actress who is listed as acting many years after. I haven't been on the bandwagon, but I really think Alice Brady is the only possible REAL answer to this, if it is all true.
KH adored her husband Ludlow Ogden and despite articles she remained close to him until his death.
ReplyDeletePS on KH wiki there is a note saying 'it has been suggested that Tom Hepburn be merged in this article'. Bet there has been a lot of seaches recently.
Margeret Rutherford won in 1963 and her last credit on IMDb is 1967.
ReplyDeleteIf it ended up being Grace Kelly...oh my...
I only looked up to 1960. I didn't think it very likely to have been after that due to the within 50 years of Timmy's death.
ReplyDeleteI really wanted this to be some scandalous answer - a gorgeous woman that no one would ever DREAM would be a woman was Shimmy. But you know what? Now, I'm ticked that we haven't gotten a clue and I've resigned myself to the fact that this was probably Alice Brady - even though I don't agree and don't think she had moobs.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure it's not Margaret either, but my vote is still for her because I'm feeling like it's none of these people.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone think it could have been someone from the 60's or 70's? Timmy got to Hollywood when the studio system was going strong, but could he have stuck around a lot longer than the two years prior to the big win? Are we taking the 50-year timespan too literally? Ent could have given a 50-year time span so we couldn't narrow it down too quickly.
ReplyDeleteThank you Dragon Slayer- great synopsis!
ReplyDeleteI was confused becuz I thought we had narrowed it down to only a couple of choices - I read through all of the blog entries from where I had left off and just got confused and I guess frustrated becuz instead of narrowing down the Shimmies it seemed like we had expanded on our Shimmy guesses again- but I think some of the guesses (although not all) were just for fun (?)
Regardless, I cannot wait until another EL clue post. I hope this hint really is something juicy and puts to rest some of our collective questions by narrowing the field.
I still like AB but disheartened when I saw the post stating she had moobs (God, I can't believe I just wrote moobs).
I'm glad "moobs" caught on. I feel like I've made a good contribution.
ReplyDeleteI still think it's someone from the 40s, Janele. The system was going strong then, but it started to break apart in the 50s - wasn't very strong, but it still existed.
I'm still hoping it's Marisa Pavan and Pier Angeli and Pier was a dude.
ReplyDeleteStopping in to say Hello!
ReplyDeleteBeen lurking and researching from the beginning. Too shy and disorganized to post until now, but have been on the same wavelength as most of you! So kudos for sorting out a lot of confusing info.
While there is a lull I suggest taking a look at that Bogie Book. "The Secret Life of Humphrey Bogart"
http://books.google.com/booksid=1zLFxp3EncMC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=%22alice+brady%22+secret&source=web&ots=MA9OPaCHsP&sig=u6zP0iJo5NXJ7ypFPz8oYnNaFHQ#PPP1,M1
Those of you blown away by the KH history will go nuts with this. Mind blowing. I wonder how much is true. And for you more organized researchers there are lots of names and situations that come up that could be leads. (I'm still reading.)
Yes. As I said I'm on the same wavelenth as most of you -- the paranoid, creeped out and OCD wavelenth. I actually caught myself looking for Timmy and for scars on Britteny Spears' mtva backup dancers the other day!
Aye, Aye Aye!
I checked into the 70's....
ReplyDelete1963 Margeret Rutherford (2 years)
But that should be the end of lists of possibles.
I still want it to be Marisa and Pier too. That would be so great!
Argh! I jumped off the AB train earlier this evening, but I find myself running along side of it, just waiting to jump back on!
ReplyDeleteFirst I think it's her, then I don't, maybe it's Kay Kendall, now she's Not-ted (though I really always want to say "outed" just because it makes me giggle!), so it must be AB, but then someone says something that makes me doubt, then we dicuss MOOBS and some strange condition I can't remember how to spell that gives teenage boys Breasts-tss-tss-tss (In living color reference) and so it can't be her, but then I look at the list of Oscar winners and can't help but think:
WHEN IS ENT GONNA GIVE US ANOTHER HINT!!!!????
That run on sentence above was brought to you by the letters A and B and a bit of sleep deprivation.
parisss,
ReplyDeleteIf you combine your research with my research, you end up with only two possible names:
Alice Brady
Margaret Rutherford
EL promises Timmy reveal next Wednesday
ReplyDeleteI've always been on the AB train, but Rutherford sure fits with the multiple award wins:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.imdb.com/name/nm0751983/awards
What troubles me though, is why did Ent give us the 50 year range? Was it to throw us off, or can Rutherford be discounted for that reason?
from the time that Margaret started in film to the time Timmy died would be 50 years.
ReplyDeletei already posted this in the message board, but i think that the 50 years thing was just a nice round, inconspicuous number. It could be any number from 1-50. (well, probably not 1-20, but still...)
ReplyDeleteThe "50" Is a guideline.
from the time that Margaret started in film to the time Timmy died would be 50 years.
ReplyDeleteThat's one of the problematic parts for me, though. Timmy didn't act as Shimmy over the course of decades, he only did it for a few years.
From what we know so far, the only thing that makes the Alice Brady scenario workable is the two ABs theory.
Can anyone come up with a way to make Rutherford fit? With her steady career, I can't.
I think Shimmy has to be someone who is new on the film scene, because of the "from her first screen test" portion of the blind. I don't think an established film actress like Alice Brady would suddenly astonish directors and producers with her amazing acting talents in one screen test when she'd already been in movies. I think Shimmy did some plays, certainly, but her debut in films would be her first time acting in films as Shimmy.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, I don't believe it's Alice Brady or any murder/switching/whatever unless the murder/switching/whatever happened with a stage actress.
And I hope it isn't Margaret Rutherford because she was not very pretty and I think Shimmy was young, attractive, and romantic. Her chin was so distinctive that it would be hard not to recognize that feature in another person. Also, she has a pretty interesting backstory - her father murdered her grandfather just before her birth, she had a famous politician cousin, and she was married. Her wikipedia says that her appearance was such that romantic leads were out of the question, so she became the comedienne.
ReplyDeleteHer role in the VIPs, according to imdb, seems to focus on her character trying to save her family estate. I firmly believe that the role in question in the blind is romantic in nature and fueled by new love.
Ana, what you're saying re: the screen test and it being a (relatively) unknown actress makes a lot of sense to me. However, I keep getting stuck on the actresses whose careers after the award win were over within a few years (someone posted a list of 6 or 7 of them upthread a bit) and by process of elimination, I'm left with AB, Dressler and Rutherford. From there, I can't help but eliminate Dressler and Rutherford, too. Dressler because she's the complete opposite of 'slight,' and Rutherford, because of the era of her win, her long career, and her bio (I know, I know, we're not supposed to be looking at that, but she was during a more recent time, and has many verifiable facts in her bio).
ReplyDeleteOver and over, I'm left with Brady. Admittedly, not everything fits for her, but IMO, she fits best.
Maybe that's why Ent didn't give any clues today, because we've pretty much guessed it, now we just need the story filled in?
And one more reason, from an amazon.com review:
ReplyDelete"Margaret Rutherford won an Oscar for her supporting role as the Duchess who's afraid of flying. How she won is a complete mystery as her performance is a piffle. "
The movie itself seems to be pretty boring and uninteresting and not really worthy of much.
What is the 'one' role that is the point of the blind vice? Who has a distinguishing scar? We have not answered these questions!
ReplyDeleteIt just occurred to me that the one role could be the 'role' of playing Alice Brady. Perhaps he had to test for whether he could pull it off. Others had to be in on the whole deception. As for the scar, I cannot find any closeups of Alice Brady to determine it.
ReplyDeleteCan't find close ups of Margaret either. Just little pics that my eyes can't see well enough to decide on. I've been on the Alice train from the beginning but am wavering with Margaret. One of the write ups I came across described her personality as very fey. That kind of quality is what I think of in describing Timmy, a slight, fey, gay man.
Has anyone mentioned the actor Eric Linden for Timmy?
ReplyDeleteI cant remember. Anyway this my first speculation. Not perfect. but interesting! Not sure about the musical talent and scar but I'm tired. (Need to tie in the mentor and KH adoration.) Please be gentle!!!
Born NYC 1909. Died bronchopneumonia 1994.
Mentioned as gay in the Secret life of Bogie book.
Due to his appearance, "Eric was five feet nine inches tall, had unruly light brown hair, and intense deep brown eyes" and youthful face, he was typecast and was cast as a boy and "sensitive" adolecents over and over.
1927-1931
Began acting in NY Theatre after college around 1927. He began acting small parts and doubled as an assistant stage manager. Discover by RKO scout and was flown to H wood and put to work.
(1931-39)
Had a short but respected and well reviewd film career in LA from only 1931-39 (41?). 4 of those years were spent in the "army!???". ('42-'46). Shimmy comes in here!
1940-1942
He became frustrated with the H-wood lifestyle, system and his being typecast-- and the last straw was being cast as a bit player in GWTW. In 1940 did a national stage tour of Golden Boy then he made one more B looking film and left H-wood filmmaking for the east coast.
In New England, he acted in theatre and did a tour with Gloria Stewart until he was (supposedly) drafted in the army in 1942. (He "supposedly" served in the war till '46.) Okay, now here is the switch. Here he steps in for the lead actress. Is a success. Convienietly WWII breaks out and in 1942 tells everyones he's been drafted then shuffles back to LA as a woman!
1942-1947
After Five years as Shimmy, still hating hollywood system, or tired of the charade or HUAC (Bogie connection?) or whatever, In '47 Shimmy fades away and Timmy comes back from the "war" and briefly dabbles unsuccessfully with play acting and play writing. When the film role for a part he played in Washington DC went to Richard Attenborough, he went back to LA one more time for a play, but the film offers dried up. And his playwriting went nowhere.
1950-1994
Cut to the 1950's: He's living outside of LA in Laguna Beach in Orange County working for the OC highway department inspecting roads and later as a radio dispatcher!! -- Until he retired in 1976!
In '55 he married and had three children. In '85 he divorced.
Living in Laguna would have given him access to his longtime never married A list companion.
Timmy's pix: (Scroll down to page 238)
http://books.google.com/books?id=1zLFxp3EncMC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=%22alice+brady%22+secret&source=web&ots=MA9OPaCHsP&sig=u6zP0iJo5NXJ7ypFPz8oYnNaFHQ#PRA1-PA238,M1
Timmy Bio
http://www.classicimages.com/1997/july97/linden.html
I have said it before, Rutherford's bio is too detailed for her to be Timmy, and I really doubt an American man could pull off an English female accent. I can't see why people think it's her, when she had a father who murdered someone and a politician cousin.
ReplyDeleteLinden died too late. EL says Timmy died between 1980-1985.
ReplyDelete(1931-39)
ReplyDeleteHad a short but respected and well reviewd film career in LA from only 1931-39 (41?). 4 of those years were spent in the "army!???". ('42-'46). Shimmy comes in here!
Correction. Army came after film carreer! 42-46 Sorry!
(1931-39)
ReplyDeleteHad a short but respected and well reviewd film career in LA from only 1931-39 (41?). 4 of those years were spent in the "army!???". ('42-'46). Shimmy comes in here!
Correction. Army came after film carreer! 42-46 Sorry!
Thanks chenofan. Could you refresh my memory of why he died then? I can't remember the reason. I tossed it in because i thought it might be circa those dates. Brain fog.
ReplyDeleteI vote for Dressler. :-)
ReplyDelete@anna
Dressler has a scar.
@ dawn:
the description of "slight" is true for timmy. Ent never said that the impersonated shimmy was a slim figure too. Shimmy was a construct. And like today maybe timmy had a lot of chocolate and ice-cream to prepare for his role :-)
I definitely think Timmy is someone like Eric Linden. Someone with plenty of screen credits as a man, that we've never heard of before.
ReplyDeleteBut Eric isn't right for Timmy.
Timmy was a good singer, and his early movies were musicals -- he was in the chorus.
This doesn't seem like Eric at all.
EL said he died of AIDS related complications sometime between 1980-1985.
ReplyDeleteEL said he died of AIDS related complications sometime between 1980-1985.
ReplyDeleteDoh. I knew THAT! Sorry!
(All in all it wasn't bad for a new conspiracy theorist.....)
Blush.
for it to be Dressler, timmy would have to die at over 112 years old. Of aids no less. Can't see it. Can't see Dressler getting romanticly involved with an A lister as well.
ReplyDeleteSigh. I'm tired. Can't wait for the reveal. I've been obssessed about this since the start. alice brady still seems the most likely but i wish I could see a scar.
It's such a shame that Mcnamara didn't win any awards, otherwise I would guess her. I'd be disappointed if it was Dressler. :(
ReplyDeleteMy guess is AB for now.
To me, it can be only Alice or Margaret.
ReplyDeleteI wanted it to be Alice Brady, but no one could come up with two...or even ONE...award she had won for the "In Old Chicago" role prior to the Oscar win. Otherwise, the two Alice Bradys is a great scenario.
Margaret Rutherford is the only one who has three major awards for one role before winning the Oscar. Unless someone has found another actress.
As far as age. Have you ever seen a high school production of "Charley's Aunt"? I have. A young high school boy gets dragged up as an older lady. If they can do this in a rural high school, imagine how well they can do it in the film world. Timmy could have been very young but loaded with old-lady makeup to play the decades-older Margaret Rutherford.
The problem is...how do we explain Margaret's long pre-movie career on the London stages? That is what precludes her from being the one. I'm not ready to accept a two rival Margarets theory.
scars anyone? I can't figure out if it's something as obvious as the ones on Joachim Phoenix's lip and Liz Taylor's throat or whether it's more subtle and can get air-brushed in photos and covered up with makeup and shadows in the films.
Both Alice and Margaret have their pros, but they also have their cons, and that's why this is so frustrating. I really think every other actress can be successfully elminated.
just thought this was fascinating for back in the day!!
ReplyDeleteMae West on her IMDB page:
West regarded talking about sex as a basic human rights issue and was also an early advocate of gay and transgender rights. She famously told policemen who were raiding a gay bar, "Don't you know you're hitting a woman in a man's body?", a daring statement at a time when homosexuality was not accepted. During her entire lifetime she surrounded herself with gay men and stood up for gay rights at any and every opportunity.
I think for me, the key with Dressler is that Ent said he never would have known Timmy was Shimmy if he hadn't heard the story, whereas Dressler is distinctly manish - homely, heavy-set. Learning she was a man wouldn't exactly be a huge surprise.
ReplyDeleteI also think that Timmy playing Shimmy could cheat ages by playing a woman maybe a decade or so older than he was, but Dressler is listed as too old, she was 65 when she died in 1934.
Also, Dressler was born in Cobourg, Ontario (I'm from Ontario, as well), and according to Wikipedia, they have an annual film-fest in her honour, there have been a couple of biographies about her written in the late 90's, and she would probably still have family living in the town. I have to think that her bio is accurate.
So, still on the AB train here, unless some compelling evidence against her or for someone else comes up.
oklahoma1234, re: the other awards Alice could have won before winning the Oscar, it's been established that there were many minor awards floating around back in the day, including monthly Screen Actors Guild awards that were issued, along with awards that were given by various publications of the day. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any online archives of these award winners, but if it turns out that Shimmy was playing Alice, I bet that these would be the other awards won for the role.
ReplyDeleteIf this is Alice Brady, and her Oscar for In Old Chicago, why would EL mention the "award with all the television viewers"?
ReplyDeleteThe timeline is just wrong for Alice Brady.
The award is from the 40s or later, I'm pretty certain. Timmy used his talent to be a woman, and escaped going to war.
Alice Brady and Marie Dressler were too long ago.
Someone upthread mentioned that they would like a list of awards that Shimmy may have been eligible for. This awards page has a list of all film awards, what years they were available, and a database of all the winners. Some awards go back to the '30s. I was looking at this page when I mentioned Anna Magnani and Katina Paxinou a few days ago.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.geocities.com/ps971100/
Awards.htm
For lack of anything to do, I searched William Haines movies and just any random actor that worked with him (the mentor angle?) and who died in the 1980's and had enough screen credits but not super major roles as possible Timmys:
ReplyDeleteRobert Agnew
Clyde Cook
Ben Hall
Lawford Davidson
George K. Arthur
Dont know what it means and dont know how it could be confirmed or denied but..
I'm out of ideas...
:)