Timmy Hint
There seems to be a very popular guess that everyone is making and one website made it their official guess. However, if you read the blind you realize this popular guess makes no sense. Timmy the actress gave up acting very soon after winning the award, so when you look at IMDB and see an actress worked for many years after her win, the guess doesn't make any sense despite the fact that everything else fits. It's easy to make up biographies, but you can't hide the fact that this actress who is a popular guess was in so many movies after her win.
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This is the best evidence I've seen so far for Alice Brady. The combination of the census info and this fact from her imdb bio
"When she won a Best Supporting Actress award for In Old Chicago (1937) in 1937, she did not attend the ceremony. Instead, a man walked up and accepted the award on her behalf. After the show, neither he nor the Oscar were ever seen again."
Another thing about Kay Kendall... she didn't come to Hollywood until Les Girls. All her films were made in UK, starting when she was about 21 (her first credited role)... so it doesn't gibe with the travelling around the boonies doing theatre or living in the Hollywood apt with 2 women as she was already with Rex Harrison by that time.
I wish I could come up with some alternatives but I've done a spreadsheet as well and eliminated many names as they were acting (as a woman) for more than 10 years after winning an award; or for working past 1985; or for winning the award in their first film...
I didn't realise it was Alice Brady who played the mother in My Man Godfrey... a great screwball comedy.
Ironically William A. Brady, Alice's father, owned and operated the theater where "Harvey" starred Josephine Hull.
My hobby for many years has been genealogy, thus the reason for a subscription to ancestry.com. I have had really good luck with finding birth records in NYC for the period of time I am looking for with Alice. On a personal side I even had to find records that had firt and last names totally different than what I thought they would be and was able to find them. I know that there is a great chance her birth record could not have been reported, but I find it weird that in this case that I can't find it. I also find it really strange that there is no census record for her in the 4 that I checked (1900, 1910, 1920, 1930.) I know that there could be really good reasons why she never appeared on the census. However, I can't find anything that I can connect with her bio. I even looked for census records in 1920 under her husband's name and under her son's name and nothing. It is just so strange to me that there is nothing I can connect to her bio.
Alice Brady cons:
1. Her film roles were predominantly matronly - she played the ultimate dippy upper crust mother.
2. Her big award win was the Oscar in 1939. Oscars weren't televised until 1953.
3. Her father in the business. How would his business partners and actors not know whether he had son or a daughter when they had the same last name? She didn't show up out of nowhere.
Alice Brady pros:
1. Dies shortly after her win.
2. Odd looking face - critics commented on how she was not quite suited to play the ingenue and should aim for character roles.
3. Career is early enough her bio would be super hard to verify.
I've just been sucked in by the iBdb(broadway database) profiles of the whole Brady family. There is a lot of loops in there hat link strangely and there i a mysterious daughter, Barbara Brady, who did one play in 1949. Could Alice have come back as a woman under a different name? (I'm getting carried away, I'll stop)
I think I found something really intriguing. Judy Holliday is a mystery to me, so I read this bio.
http://www.wtv-zone.com/lumina/judy/ndb.html
It's LONG but worth it. As you read, count the similarities to Timmy's tale as ENT gives it. There are so many things that flag up.
If you couple this bio with the skin issue, and then the fact that she is pale, slight and doesn't look like a man . . . well maybe there is something there.
Nothing about her would make me think she was really a man. But that is the point.
Check it out.
And add to Judy Holliday winning many awards for the same role - in theatre and later on film (beating Bette Davis in "All About Eve" no less).
Judy Holliday had many film collaborations with director George Cukor as well. [well known to be homosexual]
Dies young - at 43.
I found My Man Godfrey on youtube. If you look at the end of the 8 of 9 parts of it to see who I think is Alice Brady. I think she plays the mother in this film. I also found a trailer for Old Chicago that has several shots of Alice Brady. She really looks masculine to me when she is shown at the premiere. Also, it seems like she always wears high neck collars like she is trying to hide something. Now, if I could just see a small scar....
Oh, I think that the closeted leading man is Cesar Romero in the film Metropolitan in 1935.
hhmmm baker/brady/romero... interesting...
Alice Brady does not fit. There were no televised awards until 1953 -- the Academy Awards. The Golden Globes were first televised in 1964, on the Andy Williams show, and the Tonys weren't televised until 1967. The Emmy's were first broadcast in 1949, but only for television programming.
In my mind this helps to narrow down the timeframe when Timmy could have won his awards. It had to have been 1953 or later...
Well, if we get that specific about the wording of "televised awards" then why does everyone refuse to believe that it could be talking about a GG instead of an Oscar?
When it came to the very big award, the one with all the television viewers I take this to mean the awards with all the television viewers nowadays. And I don't think anyone's ruled out Golden Globes... there's a lot of overlap with the winners.
Anyway I'm reading up on Caesar Romero now... his boyfriend was Tyrone Power.
At some point in the last few days I reviewed best actress and best supporting actress for the GG, no one seemed to fit the bi. I looked at AA best actress and best supporting actress from about 1935 to about 1970 and no one seemed to fit the bi.
I have wondered about other awards, but I can't find a list of other awards from the time period we are looking. I saw something about SAG awards and if IRC they started in the 1940's.
Also, I haven't mentioned this, but, I have looked at musical cast lists from the 30's to see if any of the uncredited guys could be Timmy. I didn't find anyone that struck me as fitting Timmy's side of the bi.
Getting to the point of not knowing where else to look for info.
I just found this on imdb.
http://imdb.com/name/nm0754863/
An Actress named Timy Sandor who apeared in "Old Aquaintance" with Bette Davis and Anne Revere as well as "Where Do We Go From Here".
Both uncredited, circa 1945.
Great work on this!!
I don't think Timmy would have accepted the award for Shimmy. Wouldn't people have noticed that Timmy looked so much like Alice Brady when he accepted the award?
I'm still hung up on the Kay Kendall guess. Not only can you see what appears to be an Adam's apple, giant hands, but her nose looks manly to me. Have you ever seen nostrils that large on a woman? Especially one who has had a "nose job"? Puhlease. I don't think so.
And from what I've read, Kay didn't actually marry Rex they just lived together.
And BlindGuy, kudos to you for duct taping your pecs and wearing your wife's bra. It sounds like she's in on this so you didn't have any explaining to do. ;)
I think we all love this BI b/c we need to stretch our brains. What better way than a real life mystery? =)
I have been keeping up with everyone's comments on here! It's amazing--I thought I was pretty well-informed about old Hollywood, but certainly not at the level you all are operating at. It's fascinating stuff.
I have to say I'm leaning toward Judy Holliday for some unknown reason. I guess the timing makes the most sense to me, although there are plenty of reasons it shouldn't be her.
I also have to admit to being more than a little creeped out by the whole thing. Not on an anti-gay level or anything, I just find it creepy when people disguise their identities.
I'm sure everyone here knows the old rumor about Mary Miles Minter's mother dressing as a man to shoot William Desmond Taylor? When I first read about that I couldn't go to sleep that night!
Anyway, hopefully this is a true BI, but either way, it's kept me entertained on a lazy Saturday!
Timmy was cast as the lead of a role opposite an A-list actor at the time and they fell in love. However, this is NOT the role that landed him the big awards. It was the second role that is the subject of the blind.
The key to the clue is "When it came to the very big award, the one with all the television viewers, Timmy won again." So there has to be multiple awards for the same role, so must be for the same year...
Going back to the basics, folks, to reanalyze here. Or it's just confusing me further...
I know I've been thinking too much about this B when I actually dreamt of it last night. And lucky me, my dream threw out a name I discounted a long time ago and gave me some new angles to work with that makes me think this is the man.
Josephine Hull
Now I know I discounted her myself cause of her age but after Ent's clarification about the bios being made up, I just had to give this a chance. Basically the BI says she continued with a role from stage to screen which is Arsenic and Old Lace, with a closet A lister which I suppose could pass for Cary Grant but one thing sealed it for me and that was Ent saying that it was about "one role and one award" which really made me think of Harvey!
I own both Arsenic and Old Lace and Harvey so I'll try to watch them this weekend to see if I still feel the same way.
I just feel so strongly about this that I don't think I'm going to try anymore and I'll just wait till December for confirmation.
I was leaning toward Alice Brady with Caesar Romera as the closeted actor. But I just found this interview online with an old time theatre actress named Mary Arbenz from 1987 and she worked with Alice in theatre and apparently Alice used to take her top off backstage...
http://www.eoneill.com/library/newsletter/xi-1/xi-1i.htm
MA The original cast, yes. We went to Philadelphia and Washington. Then maybe one other city. I don't quite remember. But I DO remember Alice Brady and one of the things she used to do [laughs]. IL was very hot, and of course the theatres didn't have air conditioning. She would open her dress backstage--we wore those heavy clothes that had been designed for the show--and she would open the top. And here were these bosoms all hanging out! It didn't make any difference who was there, who was coming in from the outside to visit with her.
I've been gone since yesterday, and it has taken me hours to read over all the new info (and the rehashing of the same info) everyone has compiled. Pretty amazing what people can accomplish when properly motivated! ;)
Gillian--Thank you for pointing out that Kay Kendall didn't come to Hollywood until Les Girls. I pointed that out ages ago on a different thread, but I really think it's worth noting, a lot.
Kay Kendall was under contract to Rank Films in the UK, and was only loaned to an American studio for that one film. That would negate all the stuff about the two years working up the theater background in the US once Timmy decided to become Shimmy.
Also, once Shimmy made it to Hollywood, the BI clearly says he was living in a studio-supplied apartment with JJ's wife and another woman and:
"Over the next two years, Timmy worked steadily as a woman and kept getting better and better roles. He was very rarely the lead, but in memorable role he was cast as the lead opposite a very closeted A list at the time actor..."
Then:
Shortly after Timmy was cast as the lead, he was cast in another role which is the subject of the blind.
This means that Shimmy was in Hollywood movies for AT MOST three years before the big award-winning role. There would be ABSOLUTELY NO movie credits for Shimmy for more than three years before the award-winning role.
In my mind, all these things completely rule out Kay Kendall.
They also rule out the Alice Brady thing, but I still find her fascinating, what with the mysterious ten-year gap and lack of birth or census records.
Back to figuring this out, though. The "closeted A-list at the time actor" who never married hint seems to be the key to me (and my friend to whom I've passed my obsession with this item!).
You know about J. Hull... one thing gets me there especially. if she won this great award and was being celebrated greatly at the time of the award, she would not have thrown television into the mix so quickly in her career. It used to be taboo for a screen actor to do television because it was thought of as lesser and might taint their career... but all the tv stars wanted to do film. It hasn't been until current times that there has been so much cross over with fear of career loss... Even in the 70's the old movie stars to came to tv did so to appear/guest on love boat :) becuase their careers were washed up. Have you noticed how many of these actors in the right age range that we all are spending hours researching did an episode of love boat at the end of their professional time? I guess that is burial at sea for their careers. I have been smiling everytime I see it! I think of Hull as a character actress like Kathy Bates is today.
great find femconsult!!!!!!
Does anyone else get the feeling this is going to be a Lifetime TV Movie any week now? What would be the title and who would star (current stars) in the main roles?
Well Jake Gyllenhaal would be the closeted A-lister.. :)
People may have already seen this video with Kay Kendall but I thought I'd post it anyway. I don't really see an adam's apple. I think she looks very thin and ill in the photo's with Rex Harrison.
http://www.ina.fr/archivespourtous/index.php?vue=notice&id_notice=CAF91031361
But wouldn't Josephine Hull be too old to be Timmy? Wiki states that "She died of a cerebral hemorrhage in 1957, at the age of 71."
I'm incredibly impressed with everyone's work on this! Maybe you have solved this by the time I wake up tomorrow! I'm on the east coast, so I have to go to bed now.
i am leaning towards marie dressler. here's why:
HISTORY & RELATIONSHIPS:
think about if you were in timmy's situation: wouldn't you want to create a persona that is as ambiguous as possible? marie wrote HER OWN AUTO-BIOGRAPHY for goodness sakes with information that is difficult to verify, but ordinary (or extraordinary) enough that there would be no reason why people shouldn't believe her.
add to that the fact that even the head of MGM, louis mayer, was her close friend. he was the one who supposedly learned about her "terminal cancer" before she even knew and asked the doctor to withhold the information from her! what if he was one of the 10 people who knew her true identity? both as a friend and a businessman, would you really want to reveal the secret of your biggest moneymaker to the public?!
AGE:
and using ENT's hints: marie won her oscar rather late in her life. the title of this BL is "the life and times of timmy." ENT wrote, "Shortly after Timmy was cast as the lead, he was cast in another role which is the SUBJECT OF THE BLIND." usually, people only use "the life and times of" to commemorate one's work and that honor is usually for older, retired, or dead folks. marie was supposedly pretty darn old by the time min & bill came around.
some people also discount marie because of her supposed birth year in 1868. having known a few drag queens in my life, some men just look a lot older as women. it's very possible that marie is actually a much younger man, but tweaked his birth date to match his new identity physically.
PHYSICAL APPEARANCE:
ENT also writes, "Timmy was initially given meaty supporting roles." what if ENT meant "MEATY" literally -- as in, she always played the fat lady roles?
also, "slightly built" back in the day is probably what we would consider "pleasantly plump" today! there was very different standard of beauty. timmy could've spent the two years in his transition period to pack on some weight so that people wouldn't recognize him as marie.
and let's talk boobies: either we have to look for someone who is fat enough to have man boobs or a flat chest. i really don't think plastic surgery was the norm -- and remember, timmy went back into theater afterwards so unless he had TWO surgeries, i don't think he ever went under the knife once.
same thing applies to adam's apple: either you're thin and you do your best to hide it, or you're fat and grow a few double-chins to hide it.
what do you think?
Did somebody yet mention this from the Kinsey Institute:
"Character actor Marie Dressler was honored with an Academy Award for Best Actress in 1931 for her performance in Min and Bill. Dressler’s partner, Claire Dubrey, served as her secretary and confidant until Dressler’s death in 1934.
Dressler’s lesbianism was rarely acknowledged in Hollywood, partially because of her brief marriage to one man and
cohabitation with another, and partially because her advanced age during her screen years unfairly rendered Dressler as asexual in many people’s eyes."
sorry, i also have to say that timmy probably isn't someone who has a lot of known school or familial ties.
schools especially love to proclaim who their famous alumnae are. and with family, people would expect family photos and/or that would be way too many people to successfully corroborate a version of a family history with.
also, i feel like timmy could not have been someone who the public cared to look at too closely or too often. how else could a man dressed as a woman get away with it for so long?
I also viewed four of Alice Brady's film clips on UTube. What stood out to me was her voice (deeper than you would expect), large hands, masculine gestures and a definite adam's apple. The adam's apple could be seen in all of the clips. In "My Man Godfrey" she appeared to be wearing a poorly fitted wig, and her voice and gestures seemed really "off", and she completely reminded me of a man playing the part of a woman.
Also, I forgot to add that its possible that there are two different Alice Bradys, which would account for the 10 year gap. The first one would be the one with the famous father, and the other one would be "Timmy". Its not inconceivable that IMDB would combine the two careers into one, and it would account for some of the different looking photos of Alice that have appeared on the web.
A couple of things.
First, I don't think it can be Kay Kendall. There's too much documented about her life, and the fact that she had a famous brother is a problem. Also, not telling someone that they are dying of cancer or leukemia is something that we wouldn't dream of today, but it was not entirely uncommon in the past, and wouldn't be completely surprising here.
Second, just because you can find a birth certificate for someone doesn't mean that it's really the same person. There are cases in Hollywood where people too other identities for one reason or another. Mary Miles Minter took on the identity of her dead older cousin to get around child labor laws, and that's just the one thing off the top of my head, I'm sure she wasn't the only one. Who's to say that Timmy didn't do that? For all we know, he could have even bought a birth certificate off of somebody to add extra authenticity to his invented persona or used the birth certificate of an older deceased relative or something.
Maureen,
You mentioned the possibility of two Alice Bradys. I have been thinking about it as well. How about this scenerio - Alice Brady has a long career on Broadway and a few movies early in her career. Something happens to her and she either dies or decides to end her career. In steps her younger brother who produced three plays on Broadway. He becomes her and in that day and time probably no one would realize two different Alice Bradys. According to the internet broadway database, he dies in 1935. Then, we take the bi through the two movies (with closeted leading man and the one with the award) to the point where Timmy decides to leave acting (as Alice.) Alice "dies" in 1939 and he goes back to acting, as a man, in theater, but with a different name. I don't believe the bi ever says that he uses the same name before and after the bi time frame. Okay, I know it is far fetched, but at the same time this might be information that is not clearly known. And, maybe her brother did some acting before he became Alice under a different name that has never been associated with him as William Brady Jr.
Okay, after reading all the posts for this BI since the beginning, I just have to delurk and add my two cents. Sorry for the really long post.
Alice Brady’s birth may not have been registered, but she was well known her entire life, both on Broadway and in Hollywood. Also, she was not a man; in New York she was a known party girl who did a lot of screwing around with her (straight) male co-stars.
Here’s a description of her in 1930 (seven years before her Oscar win) from Warren Harris’s well-researched biography of Clark Gable (who the book makes clear was about as far from gay as you can get). In that year Brady co-starred with Gable on Broadway; at this time he was unknown to Hollywood, just a good-looking young actor struggling to get his career started:
"Thirty-seven-year-old Alice Brady ... was the daughter of eminent producer William A. Brady and dancer Rose Marie Rene, she had showbiz in her veins... and was a playgirl who often overdid the fun. Her boozing lost her the lead in Eugene O'Neill's Strange Interlude [1928], where she was replaced at the last minute by Lynn Fontanne."
"An affair erupted between [Gable and Brady] during the rehearsals...The affair heated up in the course of the two-week tryout tour... Gable and Brady had adjoining hotel rooms, but he never slept in his, according to other members of the company."
This doesn’t mean that Gable was Timmy's closeted A-list star. In 1930, she was a star, he was an unknown, and their affair lasted only for the short run of the play. What this does show is that Brady was NOT a man, since Gable was not gay--he was a major player with women all his life and actively detested gay men. (Although there were gay murmurs about every major male star, Gable had a lifelong pattern of continuous womanizing and no plausible male love interests.)
Here are a few more verifiable facts about Alice Brady that don't fit Ent's timeline:
--Although she won her Oscar in 1937, her first film was in 1915 (at her father's studio in New York), and she worked continuously on stage or film after that, so she didn't rocket to stardom in a few short years.
--Although there appears to be a gap in her filmography between 1917 and 1933, this is misleading. According to her Wiki bio, she acted in more than 50 silent films during this period, as well as very publicly working (and partying) as a Broadway star, as Harris describes.
--She was nominated for an Oscar in 1936 for My Man Godfrey, although she didn't win that year. Ent makes no mention of Timmy getting a big award nom for another role.
Like the rest of you, this has consumed my life for the last several days, and I have to admit that I'm stumped. I agree with others who have posted that Kay Kendall has to be ruled out, although I loved the whole Kay/Cavan thing. Also, can we please stop guessing Marie Dressler and Mary Pickford?
--Marie Dressler was a major vaudeville star who made her debut on Broadway in 1892 and recorded for Edison records in 1909. Although (like most actresses of the time) she kept pushing up her birthdate as she aged, by any reckoning she would have been well over 100 by 1980. If she’s Timmy, Ent has been lying like a rug.
--Mary Pickford was "America's sweetheart" of the silent era. Discovered by D.W. Griffith in 1909, by 1914 she was probably the most famous and adored woman on the planet. Per her Wiki bio: "Her influence in the development of film acting was enormous. Because her international fame was triggered by moving images, she is a watershed figure in the history of modern celebrity." A blind item about her being a man would be completely different (and far more spectacular) than the one Ent has written.
Thanks to everyone for all your hard work researching this BI!
PS: FWIW, Kenny Baker the singer and Kenny Baker the trumpet player are two different people.
PPS: Enty, I enjoy your site, and I hope you’re giving us the straight scoop here. People have been working their butts off on this, and there doesn’t seem to be anyone who fits your description.
Thanks Alison. You have been able see the forest through the trees in most of your comments that I have read on this subject.;-)
I have been away most of the day and agree.
I find Ent's last two paragraphs of the original post worth revisiting.
Sunday after brunch I went to Blockbuster and I rented the award winning film, and even knowing what I knew, when I watched it Sunday night it was almost impossible to tell. If you watch it carefully there is one giveaway which is a scar. It's not a big scar, but its evident in photos of the male Timmy which you can still find online in old cast photos and in the female version of Timmy as she acts her way to one of the biggest awards in films.
Timmy as an actor and actress was in over 100 films and theatre productions from Topeka to Broadway, but this is about one role and one award.
1.Ent clearly says there is ONE giveaway. A scar. He said that even knowing the actress was a man it was almost impossible to tell. So masculinity of actresses appears to be moot point not worth pursuing.
(Oh yeah, they all look like men to me too. At dinner this evening I found myself looking at all the women in the restaurant to see if they appeared to have Adam's apples if you're looking for them.)
2.That scar can be seen on Timmy in old cast photos available online. (Meaning also that there are old cast photos of Timmy online.)
3. That scar can be seen on female Timmy in her award winning role.
If you can't see the scar that's not our star. ;-)
I don't have a guess to contribute as I haven't found that actor and actress who have the scar visible. I appreciate and am enjoying all of the guesses and work everyone is contributing.
I have been on my scar soapbox so long, I think I am going to change my name to ScarBaby and I can be a Hezbian and be bff with my girl Twisty Ties. ;-)
4. Ent does say they were in productions from Topeka to Broadway.
I recall some discussion earlier about Topeka but can't find the posts. Did anyone check the people we've been discussing to see if they were in productions in Topeka ? Can someone refresh my memory or link me to the Topeka posts? I wouldn't use Topeka to rule anyone in or out. But it could put another brick in the wall.
Re: the photo of Judy Holliday.
Calla, are you referring to that thing in front of and connecting to her ear? WTF is that thing, a tumor, scar? That's a possibility !
It is nasty looking. I'll have to check further on that tomorrow.
What is the latest on Grant Williams? He also sounds interesting.
Good night, everybody ! Sorry for the long post.
Penquinchic,
I was going to say that I think anything is possible, but now that harpo068 has weighed in, I don't know what to say. I don't think all of the information that was just shared is wholly accurate though. Alice actually made only a handful of silent films after 1917, but rather returned to the stage during the 1920's. It may be possible that her brother assumed her identity AFTER 1930, or that "Timmy" did with the cooperation of her family. I've seen several photographs of her after 1930 that look quite different from her earlier photos (similar, but definitely different).
June,
I posted someting about Topeka a while back. To make a long story shirt :
Josephine Hull played in "Arsenic a& Old Lace" on Broadway in the mid 40s (before bringing her role to the screen in 49), but "Arsenic" was also performed at the Topeka Civic Theatre Academy during the 1942-43 season, before opening on Broadway.
..."From Topeka to Broadway" ?
Hee "a long story SHORT" sorry :)
Hi, I've been lurking and scratching my head over this one for days. Staring at all these old photos playing *spot the man* has been creeping me out! I'm sitting on the fence for the most part, but I feel I must correct something that's contributed to the KK evidence. The picture Twisted sister linked to here:
http://www.donbrockway.com/Skeptical%20Wendy.jpg
is NOT a picture of Kay Kendall, it is Dinah Sheridan, her co-star in Genevieve. :)
My thoughts at this point:
1. did somebody compiled a list of non married A listers from that period?
* Closeted or not, bi or not, this would be a huge exclusion list of movies timmy wasnt in.
2. The second thought is that everybody here takes it for granted that Timmy wasnt too successfull.
* He could be successful in a male-male couple (like singing / dancing/comedian support) or be the opposite to another A-lister (as villain or another role in wich his special skin condition could help - like a make-ep less Frankenstein, Dracula or so). Maybe he won something too, maybe not, thats not stated. Mabe he even hat female love interests in some roles he had.
What if he was really good as timmy, but he wanted also to play the woman´s part? Or wanted a love interest he wouldnt be forced to fake.
3. What is Timmy? Tim, Timothy, Timmo ? Is it a nickname?
"The awards show with all the television viewers."
l
I really think EL meant all the television viewers TODAY, so we should not discount anyone based on whether or not their award was given out during a televised broadcast.
Of all the people in contention, I will be most surprised if it's ditzy Judy Holliday!!!! I don't think it is.
I've been discounting Alice Brady because her father was so connected on Broadway and I didn't think she could pull it off, but in rethinking this, I think it probably was possible.
As for the scar thing, we've all seen so many photo's and clips of these 'women', I'm not sure the scar is that visible.
Angela, thanks for the correction on that. SHE'S the guy!!! ;-)
Regarding looking at their bio's and trying to determine who this could and could not be, remember the bio of this person has some false info in it. Anybody could say anything, especially back then when it was all so unverifiable.
Everyone has certainly been busy over night...I just got up and found nearly 100 more posts.
I was leaning toward the Alice Brady/Kenny Baker link yesterday and penguinchic's census data has made me more curious about it. These were government records taht were created before anyone had any inkling that they would need to fake anything. Also, posters who have dismissed this as meaningless because it's just "no birth record' don't understand that what it means is that there is no evidence of Alice Brady's existence for thirty years...not just a missing birth record. I think this is pretty strong evidence.
Harpo, I found your post from the Gable biography intriguing, I have it and plan to read it myself today. Gable definitely was not gay but there have been rumors that he may have been sexually indiscriminate when he was just getting started, including an encounter with George Cukor. This is rumored to have caused difficulties during the filming of GWTW. Iguess that is sort of OT, though and does not prove that Alice Brady was a man.
Also, Harpo, thank you for asking people to stop guessing Mary Pickford...despite all the logical reasons, I can't even begin to think about uber-male Douglas Fairbanks marrying a man.
To all of you...this has been so much fun...you are all great researchers!
First
I feel is though people are paying too much attention to the actress bio because ent already said that its made up.
Second
If 10 people knew about this then who is to say that if someone parent is famous or if they have a famous relative that it cant be them. they can either be an actual relative of the person which may be the reason no one said anything cause people dont like to tell on family or for instance since being gay sometimes got you blacklisted if i was a famous producer and sleep with one of the cast then i would lie for them to...
Third
If someone bio said they got married then got divorced or the person died before hand that could just be something timmy wrote so if the person didnt link up with anyone no one would think anything of it.
Fourth
when i cross checked awards and how long they were in movies after that i only found 3 that could actually be it Alice Brady, Mary Astor, and Josephine Hull....
Re; your first point.
This is why I think penguinchic's research supports the Alice Brady theory. There is no evidence in census records to support the info on imdb and other sites, which indicates it is likely fabricated.
Can we look at it from the point of the likely birthdate?
To determine the earliest possible birthdate: If Timmy died of AIDS in the early 80's, let's say that the oldest he may have been would be 70 and the earliest he may have died is 1980. That would mean the earliest he could have been born is 1910.
To determine the latest possible birthdate: Given the number of years of struggling as a male (making a lot of movies with bit parts), some years establishing himself as a female, declining, disappearing, reemerging and working as a male and passing away no later than 1985, and given that he was in Hollywood as an adult male when musicals were still popular (they declined in the late 1950s) and the studio system was still alive (a similar time frame), let's say the youngest Timmy could have been in 1955 was 25 (making him 55 when he died), which would make his birth date 1930.
This suggests that the birthdate window is between 1910 and 1930, give or take a couple of years. That certainly knocks out those born in the 19th century (e.g., Alice Brady).
Also, have we paid enough attention to the saloon still? Does it reveal the scar?
i'm thinking timmy and rex harrison were friends, they did a lot of theatre work together. rex helped him concoct the whole english background to get him started as a female, when he needed to get out rex helped again with an illness story and fake marriage. no one would suspect anything because rex was def not gay....rex may have known this secret from the very first performance when timmy went on as a woman so....now am going with KK
But... Mary Astor's filmo on IMDB shows she worked until 1964 !
BTW my grandmother never gave her age and the only thing that we could conclude due to poor records is that she was alive in 1905 at least so anything before that time is probably up in the air with a lot of people..... the marie dressler could be possibly but what has ruled it out for me is that yes timmy could have been a fat woman but i dont think it would have been hard for timmy to come back to movies if that was so because she/he wouldnt have looked alike... if somebody said they did you could have easily said thats my cousin she couldnt have said any different.. i am thinking the actress may have been pretty hot and timmy was pretty womanly.... cause in point ms jay on america's next top model when he had on a dress he was one of the best looking women i have ever seen
Thanks Natalie !
Has anyone found any photos of Kenny Baker other than the one on Wiki ? TIA
and....after comparing online photos i think KK- kay kendall and grant williams are the same person. ihave to watch the movie and see her scar to be sure......
dirk bogarde is the closeted A lister...A list abroad
Captivagirl!!!!!!!!!!!!! Welcome to the dark side! ;-)
Also, we already know about Dirk....all of that is in my KK proof above.
I was leaning toward Alice brady...but the Kay Kendall/Grant Williams thing fits...pics of the two of them are similar, he died of an "infection" in 1983 and was a "lifelong bachelor." Anyone have access to the UK Ancestry.com so we can disprove KK's data?
everything now fits....kk
Well, that's what we've been tryin' to tell ya, grl!
I'm not seeing Grant Williams as Timmy, though. Here's a pic:
http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/horror/grantwilliams/grantwilliams10.jpg
have a dozen pics there the same person...if....the scars match..i'm going to watch the film
Post the links to the pics, because I'm not seeing it when I look at this one:
http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/horror/grantwilliams/grantwilliams6.jpg
and this one of KK:
http://www.britishpictures.com/photos/photo075.htmf
The nose is different and he has a slight cleft in his chin that she doesn't have.
The bio I read said he died in 1985, though, not 1983.
read my posts from way back when i found him his death is listed 1985
Re: KK and Grant W.
KK: Arguments for:
1. Masculine appearance.
2. Dirk Bogarde A list closted person.
3. Timing is right.
4. Birthplace of York is in the northeast (of England!)
Arguments against:
1. Career in the UK, not US.
2. Birthplace in England!
Grant Williams.
Arguments for:
1. Seems to have emerged at the right time.
2. Died in 1985.
3. Never married.
Arguments against:
1. Seemed to be acting the same time as Kay Kendall (but then again, maybe it's not her...)
2. Continued to act after Kay died -- where was the skin problem?
I know, but lilandorth must have read something else, because she said he died in 1983.
http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/horror/grantwilliams/grantwilliams10.jpg
http://www.cineyestrellas.com/Elenco/Actrices/H/Holliday_Judy_1.jpg
I've lost my mind. I know.
Grant doesn't appear to have gone on to act on the stage for the rest of his life, either.
what harpo068 said at 12:42am
also this:
june said...
2.That scar can be seen on Timmy in old cast photos available online.
This clue has puzzled me. In the studio-era, photographs were intensely airbrushed and all films were shot on meticulously-lit soundstages. You never saw Kath. Hepburn's freckles for example.
It suggests that Timmy's career spanned the end-of-studio era when more realistic lighting/location shooting became the norm which rules out some of the earlier stars.
Also, if this "scar" is visible in online cast photos, it must be very prominent to be seen at a resolution of 96 dpi.
Other things I'm mulling over: the Topeka reference, the phrase This award season was a blessing which is a bit awkward, and the phrase What Timmy had going for him was a personality that wouldn't quitwhich alternately sounds like vivacious or really determined.
Ent said...
Why does the date of death of the "actress" matter? If she is in fact even listed as deceased.
This rules out Kay Kendall for me. Her death story is too well known.
It's possible that EL just said that because he found it so ridiculous that we were initially using the date of death of a fake person as an argument. You know EL. Loves to see us running in one direction, then throws a bone in the other!
i'm trying to connect these people in a theatre production prior to KK's first varifiable film appearance.....topeka has an old theatre that was popular with big stars
What we really need is one of those "and it ain't"s
I did read Grant Williams death as 1983...but even if that was a typo and it should be 85 it is still within the 80-85 range.
I think that being able to search UK census records would be a big help to prove or disprove KK. We have very specific birth information from imdb and other sources and if that cannot be proved with other records then it is likely made up. I tried my US ancestry.com but was unable to search any records past 1901 which does not help. I will see if I can find any other sites.
Just because Kay Kendall's "death story" is well known doesn't mean it's true, though.
I'm back on the Judy Holliday train, only because I think I went as far as I can with Kay Kendall.
Judy has extensive theater, traveled across the country doing theater, fits the description, won many awards for the same role b/c she played it on stage AND in the movie, she is pale, slight , dies young (43) and there is no way anyone looking at her would think she was a man. There are also some hints she had a skin condition.
For me, the big point is that no one would guess this person to be a man. ENT says after looking at Timmy's work as a woman, knowing what he knows, Timmy is still wholly believable as a woman.
To be blunt: It wouldn't be all that shocking if someone told you that older, portly women (oh let's just call them plump) with a craggy face was really a man. If Timmy was older and playing old women, he could probably keep the ruse up quite a while as romantic leads or revealing costumes wouldn't be a problem.
Oh look, I'm three days into crazy with this blind LOL. Good morning everyone =)
I don't see any lapses in Grant's work, either. Seems like he was working steadily from 1955 until 1972. Nothing really huge, mind you, but no long lapses.
twist- refer to the the blind ......being all 3 things at once......
Aaaahhhhh...okay. Now I see where you're coming from. That makes sense. Where are these piccies of them looking the same? If you have links, please post them, so I can get on board with you on that front.
KENDALL Clive R Cottingham East Riding COTT/7A/314
KK's birthdate is listed as 1926 and her name as Justine Kendall-McCarthy, born in Withernsea, Yorkshire, England.
I searched here:
http://www.yorkshirebmd.info/cgi/birthind.cgi
and found only the above birth for East Riding (the district which contains Withernsea) in 1926. Additionally, searching all of Yorkshire for 1926 produces no "Justine Kendall-McCarthy"
twis..here's some briansdriveintheatre.com/grant williams.html i'm looking for the others
Cyrus K. HOLLIDAY was the founding father of TOPEKA, Kansas.
I also watched a clip of Donald Novis singing on You Tube - the voice could fit. Also, he had a prolific career prior to 1944. Then there is a gap.
Judy Holliday won her big awards in 1950. Donald Novis went on to star in the Golden Horseshoe Revue at Disneyland from 1955 until the 1960s. However, he died in 1966. It doesn't all fit, but it fits better than anything else.
also it states he went back to the stage.....doesn't say he never did more films...just that he worked as a man
A clive kendall on imdb:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1149417/
Probably nothing , though
If Kay Kendall is the one, then the level of deception is mind-boggling. They went to GREAT LENGTHS to fabricate this story...which I guess could be part of the shock value of this story.
Does the fact that Grant Williams was in the Air Force throw anyone off? I don't know what the don't ask, don't tell policy was back then, but, it just seems strange to me...
Good find, Calla
www.autographsofamerica.com/l-operamusic.html
www.wtv-zone.com/lumina/judy/trivia.html
I know I said it before, but it's way too much of a coincidence with me that the BI mentions Topeka, Kansas and the founder is someone with the last name of Holliday.
I don't think Judy Holliday had any connection to the Hollidays-she may have just picked the name. It's just EL giving us a clue.
also, timmy is the one who grew up in the northeast not the female persona..grant williams is from ny
Cap, the link to the pics doesn't work for me.
Rakemama, nobody talked about homosexuality back then, so many gay people served and there wasn't any problem with that.
twis..then go to briansdriveintheatre.com...then search grant williams
okay, why have we ruled out Margaret Rutherford? On the Brian's Drive-in site it say's that Grant Williams career inexplicably took a nosedive in 1963 and he was out of things until coming back around '66...that's the exact time frame that MR won her award and then died. I know she was old and matronly, but, as has been mentioned before, that would be an even easier way for a man to pass as a woman.
Yeah, but it's hard to fake saggy skin without lots and lots of really good makeup work.
Just rethought Grant Williams/Margaret Rutherford...since MR career started in the 30's it would be hard for a newbord GW to be playings some of her roles...other than that, it's perfect!! LOL
ooops, *newborn
rake...his career doesn't really have to stop...read the orig blog..he was working three personas
i worked backwards because we know for sure about timmy's death and birthplace..did anyone find another actor who matches? the only gay actors with aids related deaths i found were g williams and rock hudson 1985
You mean they were only actors you could find were ones who actually listed "AIDS" as a cause of death? If you look at the comments section for the "Timmy Clarifications and Hints" blog entry, you'll find that a list of all actors who died between 1980-1985 ... but I know it's not comprehensive, because I ran into others in my searches.
Sorry, I should have proofread...I hope you can make some sense out of what I wrote... :P
Captiva- You're absolutely right...I have actually been working from that assumption (3 personas), but when I saw Margaret Rutherford, I just kind of forgot. Thanks for the reminder!
calla i used the other info we have and was able to elliminate the others (for example the age)
For people still on the Kay Kendall bandwagon I found some photos of her that haven't been linked already - including pre-nose job that you can make bigger on Getty Images, just type her name
and hit enter (also you can find all the other actresses we've been discussing here).
http://www.gettyimages.com/search/search.aspx#
I'm reexploring Margaret Rutherford as Timmy. Her career declides after her Oscar win as people have pointed out and in one of her pictures I see a vertical scar by her lip.
A further thought regarding the pictures, with the assumption that Ent is giving us visual clues.
One of them looks like it's from a musical of the 1930s -- in particular, the late 1930s. Perhaps Timmy is in it as a male.
The saloon scene looks like it's from the 1940s. In fact, I think it's from The Harvey Girls, because I think one of the actors is Preston Foster, a co-star. (Incidentally, it's the musical that launched "On The Atchison, Topeka, and the Santa Fe.) Maybe one of the women in the picture is Timmy as a woman.
The picture of the car: could it be a shot from The Movie that Ent. says is the subject of the blind item? (Alternatively, but less likely, could the name of the car be a clue?)
With regard to Kay Kendall and Judy Holliday. They're deaths were so publicized it's hard to imagine they were faked. Also, would Timmy fake being a Brit? Or a Jew? Also, in both cases, their early careers -- in English films for Kendall, and in The Reuvers for Holliday, argues against.
I am new here, but have spent DAYS following postings here (and checking up on leads!). One thing I haven't seen posted is that Grant Williams has a cleft chin; Kay Kendall does not. They cannot be the same person.
Just a couple of ideas.
Carole Lombard had a famous scar on her cheek.
The clues do seem to point to Westerns, and Disney.
Timmy (the name) sounds like a little boy. Perhaps Timmy worked as a boy in Hollywood, in musicals, but then his voice changed and he started the career as a woman.
Timmy is also the name of boy who follows Lassie, in the TV show.
That boy also played by Tommy Rettig.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0720568/
i was just thinkin..by marrying before his fake death, legally he could keep his own estate..its possible he still had $ coming to him...if he just disappeared he couldn't collect
Cap, that link didn't work for me either. Insert fowny face here...lol.
Okay, the pic with all those peeps standing or sitting was identified by someone as being from an Irving Berlin-Robert Sherwood Broadway play called, "Miss Liberty". I haven't been able to verify that, but the stars don't match up. It's about the Statue of Liberty and how she's the first to greet immigrants coming to a new land.
So maybe it's a hint saying the person wasn't born here? I dunno!
Just returned from visiting a Judy Holliday bio page, and just so everyone knows, she was in the process of inventing edible teaspoons made of Bisquik pancake mix...I just had to share that. Off to do more research.
Missanonymous wrote:
"I am new here, but have spent DAYS following postings here (and checking up on leads!). One thing I haven't seen posted is that Grant Williams has a cleft chin; Kay Kendall does not."
Welcome former lurker! I did mention that earlier this morning but posts are easy to miss at the rate this thing is moving!
g r a n T w I l l I a M s = TIMI? no i'm going too far now..break time lol
WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Miss Liberty was a play that ran from 1949 to 1950. Could that have been the play that Timmy played the part of the woman in?
Here is a list of the cast and understudies. Maybe we can research these?
Eddie Albert Horace Miller
Stephanie Augustine A Model
Singer
Herbert Berghof Bartholdi
Lewis Bolyard A Brother
Singer
Forrest Bonshire A Shark
Dancer
Philip Bourneuf Joseph Pulitzer
William B. Calhoun A Boy
Irene Carroll Singer
Ed Chappel A Lover
A Minister
Singer
Leonard Claret A Shark
Strong Man
Dancer
David Collyer A Brother
Singer
Virginia Conwell Acrobat
Reception Delegate
Dancer
Trudy Deluz A Model
Charles Dingle James Gordon Bennett
Norma Doggett Dancer
Marilyn Frechette A Model
A Socialite
Dolores Goodman Reception Delegate
The Sailor's Girl
Dancer
Ethel Griffies The Countess
Patricia Hammerlee Dancer
Fred Hearn Reception Delegate
Dancer
Maria Karnilova The Girl
Ruby
Allen Knowles A Shark
Reception Delegate
Dancer
Eric Kristen The Judge
Erik Kristen The Train
Dancer
Bob Kryl Boy #1
Newsboy
Ernest Laird Boy #2
Newsboy
Sid Lawson Carthwright
Mary McCarty Maisie Doll
Donald McClelland The Mayor
Richard K. Fox
Allyn McLerie Monique DuPont
Joe Milan Acrobat
The Train
Dancer
Robert Pagent A Shark
Dancer
Gloria Patrice A Maid
Dancer
Robert Patterson An Admiral
A Policeman
Singer
Robert Penn A Gendarme
Singer
Eddie Phillips Acrobat
The Train
A Sailor
Dancer
Tommy Rall The Boy
Another Lamplighter
The Dandy
Emile Renan French Ambassador
Johnny V. R. Thompson A Lamplighter
Evans Thornton Police Captain
The Policeman
Immigration Officer
Singer
Bob Tucker Reception Delegate
Dancer
Rowan Tudor The Herald Reader
Elizabeth Watts The Mother
Helene Whitney The Lover's Girlfriend
An Actress
Singer
Understudies: Irene Carroll (Maisie Doll), Ed Chappel (Horace Miller), David Collyer (Bartholdi), Virginia Conwell (Principal Dancer), Norma Doggett (Monique DuPont), Patricia Hammerlee (Principal Dancer), Donald McClelland (James Gordon Bennett), Robert Patterson (French Ambassador), Robert Penn (Richard K. Fox, The Mayor), Eddie Phillips (Principal Dancer), Evans Thornton (Joseph Pulitzer), Bob Tucker (Principal Dancer), Elizabeth Watts (The Countess).
Okay, he's not one of the understudies based on EL's blind. There was no understudy. He may have been just someone in the chorus.
Re: KK
It's been at least 20 years since I saw Les Girls. All I could remember is that it was about three women entertainers who lived/travelled together so I looked up the plot on imdb: It's a musical comedy version of "Rashomon"... All the principals give wildly different versions of the same events... [last scene] we see a man wearing a sandwich board with the eternal question: "What is truth?" on it. And the film ends.
Kinda like "Timmy's" life. Heh.
This morning I woke up with the story of the man accepting the award for Alice Brady in my mind. I went back and reread that part of the clue. I was thinking that if the clue read as Timmy accepting it then it would show without a doubt that it is Alice Brady. On the other hand, if it read that he accepted it as a woman that would definitely throw out Alice as being the actress.
But, when I reread it, I can't decide what I think about it now - either he accepted as the actress or he did not accept it during the ceremony. Anyway, this may be a dead end, but I started to think maybe we should figure out who did not attend as a way to either include or exclude them depending on how this clue reads.
I am looking at all the photos available on Getty for our biggest candidates. Most annoying, half of them are impossible to scrutinize because the logo/watermark is splashed across their faces.
But . . .
Margaret Rutherford? I'd be more shocked if someone could prove that mug belongs to a real woman. HOLY GUACAMOLE she was manly.
Judy Holliday - ENT very clearly says an actress who goes on to make more solid movies after her win isn't Timmy. Judy's big win was in 1950 for "Born Yesterday" - the role she won for on stage and the movie. But she was in many solid films afterwards, her last ten years later in 1960.
She doesn't fit. Which kills me because she seems most likely otherwise.
good twis! this is interesting..i'll look for cross matches with that horseshoe production too!
So, Garbo only won an honorary Oscar, which might have been considered a "blessing," but she did win two New York Film Critics Choice Awards in 1936 and 1937, and then a few short years later, we all know what happened with her...the NYFCC awards were created to be in contrast to the Academy Awards and might have been considered to be a very prestigious award too? I dunno. Be kind of funny if the Guinness Book's one time World's Most Beautiful Woman was reallly a man!
I think IMDB and Wiki are about to rescind my search priviledges, LOL. I had this thought during my research this morning based on the IMDB entry--wouldn't it be beyond mind-boggling if it was Carole Lombarde? Just sayin'.....
I either need more wine or less wine to keep up my work. I'm leaning towards more....
Hello---Another newbie here who has gotten completely sucked into this mystery...I'm completely obsessesed now too. I'm not convinced yet on the Kay Kendall theory, but I find it fascinating enough to pursue from all angles.
My theory is to look for someone more obscure, someone whose death would not have been a big story...in the 1970s, a book came out called "Ginger, Loretta and Irene Who?" by George Eells. It was a compilation of bios of movie stars from the golden age: Ginger was Ginger Rogers, Loretta was Loretta Young, I remember there was a chapter on Kay Francis. The "Irene" was a little-known actress named Irene Bentley who had made a few films and simply dropped off the face of the earth. He couldn't find anything about what had happened to her.
Of course, that was 30 years ago, and she now has a listing on IMDB...apparently she died in 1965, in Florida, of a heart attack. For various reasons, I don't think she's Timmy (no awards, niece of composer Harry B. Smith)...but I can't help thinking that Timmy would be someone like her.
I think someone like Mary Pickford is just impossible...she got started too young, was SUCH a huge star, married to Douglas Fairbanks and Buddy Rogers...too beloved and too much of a celebrity to have a secret like that for so long.
I've also thought about working "backwards," looking for B-list actors who died in the early 80s from AIDS or AIDS related illnesses. Entertainment Weekly used to publish annual lists of people the entertainment business had lost because of AIDS, everyone from big stars to make-up artists. EW didn't get started til the late 80's, though, so there wouldn't be a record from them that far back. But there must be another published commemmoration similar to the one EW put out.
Well, I'm going to keep reading, and keep looking. Thanks for all the great research.
I'm not getting on the KK bandwagon BUT
look at the Getty Archives (thank you for posting that btw) for her, esp photos #3091772 and #3287259 both dated 17 Sept 1945 at the bottom of the page.
According to her bio, she is 20 years old at this point. LOOK at that head shot! I'm trying to pass it off as bad lighting since it doesn't look like it was shot in a studio but she looks a lot older than 20. (And, she's wearing the same chenille bathrobe as in the "Fireside Fanmail" photo only she's stuck a lace jabot in front to make it look like a dress!)
Take a look at this playbill with KK on the cover. Geeze, have you ever seen anything so low cut with absolutely no sign of boobage?
http://www.ozemags.com/PlaysAndPlayers159.shtml
And remember the story about her shopping and coming out naked or whatever that was? It would be the perfect made up story to leak if Timmy thought someone was on to him.
Here's some tidbits in support of Margaret Rutherford. She only married once, very late in life late 40s-early 50s which was very unusual back then. She then made requests that her husband have parts written for him in the movies she was in. On her husband's IMDB page it says in the trivia section:
"Confessed to his wife, Dame Margaret Rutherford, that he was hopelessly infatuated with Sir John Gielgud. Apparently the infatuation was unrequited..."
And remember her adopted son had gender reassignment surgery from male to female and called himself Dawn Pepita.
Acetomato - thank you bunches for the lead on the Getty images.
You know what I noticed? The second photo of KK is from June 5th 1959. Two months and one day before her death. I'm sorry, but I've seen some relatives die of cancer back when treatment wasn't as advanced and none of them looked that good. The last six months of their lives left them pretty ravaged. Some were unrecognizable their last couple of months.
And the memorial? A memorial means they either had a very private service or no service at all.
I'm still considering others, but this has me really wondering even more if it isn't KK.
Twisted Sister said: Take a look at this playbill with KK on the cover. Geeze, have you ever seen anything so low cut with absolutely no sign of boobage?
LOL, yeah, my pic at the company Christmas party last year in my strapless sweetheart neckline! Sorry TS,just HAD to say that!!
I just read the original post to my husband and showed him all the pictures. His comment? "I want to know who this is unless it's Ilsa (Ingrid Bergman/Casablanca). Then...don't tell me. Leave me with my illusions."
So OT, but just wanted to add this-
He's watching Constatine right now, and he said if there's any man pretending to be a woman in Hollywood, it's Tilda Swanson.
Okay, I may have to permanently get off the Kay Kendall bandwagon after seeing her boobs in this picture.
They are hanging down rather pendulously ... I don't think a man would be able to fake that.
LMAO! I'm sorry, Zerggirl! You might want to borrow blind guy's duct tape for this year's party. That and his wife's bra did wonders for the man. (at least that's what we hear. he didn't post pictures or anything)
Yeah, Calla, but don't you wonder where those came from, given the shot on the playbill? In the playbill pic there isn't even enough skin to push together to form faux boobs. Unless her nose surgery included her chest.
Can you give me the link for the playbill photo? I can't find it...
If one believes that EL is dropping hints at us via the images he chose... well, the picture of the two cars driving down the Sunset Boulevard is most definitely a screen capture from an old film, you can tell it from the compression artefacts and colours. Now if anyone out there could only recognize where it's taken from it could give us a new clue or two.
don't get too stuck on the boob thing, i'm in the biz, i could make kelly rippa look like a c cup even in a low cut or strapless
Calla -
http://www.ozemags.com/PlaysAndPlayers159.shtml
Back to the Getty images of KK at this site:
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx
3rd row down, last picture on the right. Anyone notice anything?
I've been looking at the pictures of KK on Getty Images and if she wasn't lying about her sex, I have to believe she was at least lying about her age! Not that I think that that's uncommon, even now.
Twisted Sister said...
And remember the story about her shopping and coming out naked or whatever that was? It would be the perfect made up story to leak if Timmy thought someone was on to him.
But that is one of my biggest objections that KK is Timmy. I read the book that contains the anecdote... It happened. What would be the point of making it up?
Here's the full text. Sorry, it is long.
[The shop was Bazaar, recently opened by Mary Quant and her bf/later husband Alexander Plunkett-Greene in the mid '50s in Chelsea] One Saturday afternoon... Kay Kendall walked in..when all the changing rooms were aleady full and we had one customer using our office and another monopolizing the lavatory... it was pandemonium. Alexander tried to to look after KK as he knew her slightly...In desperation, Alexander suggested the [closed] restaurant downstairs [as a changing room]...They went down and while Alex. was hanging the clothes over the backs of chairs, Kay took her clothes off. It didn't take long. She had no bra, no knickers. She was completely naked under the dress she was wearing. It was a bit disconcerting to Alex. but he tried hard to appear unmoved as he handed her one dress after another... gazing nonchalantly out of the window. Then something caught his eye. Framed in the window looking in were two small boys. Obviously they had seen the great film star come out of Bazaar and go downstairs... they were peering in, completely engrossed... When they saw Alex. had spotted them, they turned without making a sound, their mouths still open in wonder, and simply shot up the stairs and disappeared. Meanwhile KK went on calmly trying on the dresses. She bought four of them.
Would She-Timmy be so nonchalant about undressing in public?
TS- Adams apple, perchance? ;)
I've been obsessed with this BI as much as everyone, but my detective skills are distinctly sub par, otherwise I'd try and contribute more!
You are all doing a marvellous job-I applaud you.
I love mysteries like this!
Well, one more boob argument and I'm done ... ;) The Playbill photo is 8 months before her death ... and she looks very skinny and sickly. The Getty photo is 6 years earlier, in March of 1953. Losing that much weight can have a profound effect on boobage. In my mind, it lends credence to the idea that she really did have a terminal disease.
A few things--don't know if they have been mentioned as I'm trying to work and follow this page at the same time:
For those searching on ancestry.com--
(1) Alice Brady's birthname as given on Internet Broadway Database is Mary Rose Brady
(2) There is something under immigration records that shows a Justine Kay Kendall McCarthy (or some permutation thereof) arriving at Port of New York sometime pre-1950-soemthing
I don't have a subscription to this site--does anyone else?
Also--look for photo on this page:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=914&page=5
Weird site...haven't had time to read the thread yet, so make of it what you will...
Apologies if these things have been noted here already--there is SO much stuff!!
I found the source of the Sunset Boulevard image, if it's any help.
http://videodetective.com/photos/038/000163_22.jpg
http://images.google.com/images?q=%22sunset+boulevard%22+screen&ndsp=18&svnum=10&um=1&hl=fi&lr=&client=opera&rls=fi&start=126&sa=N
Bottom row.
the getty photos are great.the one with yul credits LIFE AND TIMES which is interesting and the one with the pearls is dated 6/5/59 after she died..just a typo i guess...the photos are beautiful, she doesn't look at all sick
jloc
I've only read a few pages of the thread so far... it's devoted to Jack the Ripper! But there is this:
"Today [March 12 2006] there was a big article about Kay Kendall in The ABC magazine of The Independent on Sunday.It was entitled Kay Kendall,The Lost Heroine of Screwball comedy.
Kay"s real name was Justine Kay Kendall McCarthy.Her grandmother was the great Marie Kendall, a famous music hall entertainer and her grandfather was John McCarthy"s son, John Joseph McCarthy."
So, from a prominent, well-researched family...
I did a very quick search on ancestry.com for Mary Rose Brady and found nothing. This is the closest I found for a Mary Brady on birth records
Mary J. Brady 24 Nov 1892
Rose Brady 19 Nov 1894
I just found this one as well, which I can't believe I missed it. So, I might have spoken too soon about not finding a birth record for her. Of course, the only thing that matches in the name and the month. I usually try to match at least the exact day or year to consider it to be a match.
Alice Brady 29 Nov 1894
I'm about to eat lunch, but I will do a deeper search in a couple of hours. I will look up about Kay then as well.
She looks really good for a guy
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb281/ronnistuff/KK.jpg
Yet another lurker who's jumping in after obsessing over this...
Anywho - I was looking at all the Getty images of KK - and when I looked at the 1945 prim and proper pose, it looked to me like KK had a scar above her right eyebrow - but in the rest of the pictures, she always has a little curl of hair down over that part of her forehead.
I imagine I'm just seeing scars on everyone!
Ok people this is crazy. Don't you have jobs, kids to take care of? I want you all to focus this energy and time on world peace, 'cause Ent says he's revealing this in December. LMAO. I don't think I did as much research on my university papers! Seriously, I'm in awe. Just remember to eat and drink, I would hate for someone to drop dead at their computer over Timmy.
i love that getty site, i was just looking at grant williams again
In reply to Nikki..yes I have a job but I'm off until Tuesday. I don't have kids or pets to take care of and I can't wait until December.
Now back on topic. For people on the Alice Brady bandwagon here is a link to 4-5 pages of photographs of her:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?keyword=alice+brady
I've been on the fence about Alice ever since I found that interview with the actress that said Alice walked around with her top off backstage. The interview was from 1987 there would be no reason for her to make it up. I really can't support the KK theory - Getty has photos of Rex Harrison and his children attending Kay's memorial -that's really pushing boundaries to involve your children in such a twisty gender bender scheme.
Actually, the picture of Kay Kendall with Lauren Bacall is the deal killer for me. Bacall would knock a fake off in two seconds.
What about Colette Marchand??? Has she been mentioned and I've just missed it?
Born in France 1925, nominated for best supporting actress oscar for 1952's Moulin Rouge---her only Hollywood film. A few French films, a few tv show appearances...I can't find anything else about her. Is she still alive?
She won a Golden Globe in 1953 as best new star of the year (actress).
Does anyone know anything about her?
Collette Marchand did a pictorial in a French mag in 1969. I think it's unlikely that Timmy would have resurrected his female persona after all that time for a photo shoot.
Regarding Alice Brady opening her top in front of whoever. When I watched her on youtube.com the one thing that struck me was how flat chested she is. I thought about it and wouldn't a guy think nothing of showing his front to everyone because he has nothing to show. Also, at that time I don't think people focused on boobs as much as they do today and so a flat chest would be just that a flat chest. It is interesting to me is that she wears high neck dresses in all the pictures I have seen.
Ican't go with the Alice Brady theory for this reason; Ent said "When musicals were still fairly popular" which would suggest the mid to late Fifties. Just sayn'
It's none of these people. It's someone very obscure. It's not Kay Kendall, Josephine Hull, Judy Holliday, or Alice Brady.
It's someone who got a pretty big part in 2 movies, as an actress. He probably has one name as a man, then a different name as the actress, and then a third name following the end of his career, when he returned to being man.
We're not going to find this guy by going through lists at IMDb.
I think the best bet is to look at some pictures of famous movies where somebody displays a scar. EL says the scar is visible.
Carole Lombard has a visible scar. So does Gene Kelly. There must be plenty of others.
Perhaps Google "actresses with scars"?
Topeka means :
A word from the Kansa Native American word meaning: A good place to dig for roots.
Further, something i find important.
I think a lot of people here waist a lot of energy, even having a lot of fun doing that, on comparing photos.
It is really hard for me to believe that we find the pair by looking at adams apples and boobs. The scar is the give away. Why do i believe that? Well only ten people knew the truth. Timmy (beeing gay) was for sure somehow active in the gay scene. And that nobody in this entire, lets call it "optical sensitive" scene, has noticed ANYTHING must really mean A LOT. Looking at stars for the aesthetics and at their lover or friend, there must be such a huge difference so that even they couldnt tell. So we, relying on old photos, cannot grasp that difference by far.
It must have been a stunning thing then, and impossible to tell now if not using the other clues.
Plus, about manipulation of photos, two tidbits. First a lot of posters werent photographed but painted wich would give you all the freedom you need. Second you had professionals back then too, so you could make a collage then photograp h that one. Would work perfectly. This if you would´t use a lookalike with the excuse that at the date of the shooting the skin condition was too bad to go on with it. too easy.
Then, about Alice Brady:
1 It would be a good call to name yourself like this, because of the known name, everybody would accept your sudden appearance and further or deeper research could be dimmed somewhat.
2. to the Brady family in the beginning it wouldn´t be a big intriguing thing, since for them it must be a coincidence. Later, like all people in that business do, they could jump on the positive PR train. Once ended tragically they cut loose. There is no refference to them later.
3. The boutique incident could easily be planned. Take a lookalike, let her enter the store, the cabin, then you - the star enter with press and entourage. Enter the cabin, the lookalike with the perfect makeup and wig comes out and shows the goodies. Who would look at the FACE? back then AND facing a star? Repeat twice and exit the stage. Could have been one of the knowing "roommates", or a hired one. in wich case the skin condition would be again enough explanation for the need of this stunt.
Oh, a last one:
at Judy Hollyday - i would like the name "holliday" as the break of being a man.
But i go searching the scars. the rest is makeup. look at todays mugshots.
In response to david..
Actually it is one of those people. If you read #6 on ENT's Clarification and Hints post he confirmed that 3 blogs guessed it correctly and if you had looked at other gossip/blind item blogs they had such guesses as Alice Brady, Fay Bainter, Marie Dressler, Josephine Hull, etc.
I agree that with the clue about musicals makes it seem like it was in the 50's or so, when I have reviewed lists of award winners, I have found that none of them fit the other clues - long careers after the award.
I just reread Alice Brady's bio on imdb and a line about how she was one of the few actors who were able to transition from silent films to talkies stood out to me. On top of that there was a gap in movies. Maybe because its a different person?????
I really had talked myself off the Alice Brady train, but I seem to keep getting back on it. Please point someone else out to me that I can research so I can get off this train. ;-)
David, it would make less sense to google actresses with scars, I think, than to just pick out the most obscure winners of the Oscars and Golden Globes and then search photo's for a scar. I agree, we're not talking about anyone who has lived on as a legend, but someone who just kind of disappeared into the woodwork.
Did any of the other blogs guess Judy Holliday? I've seen two photos now where it looks like she has a rash on the left side below her ear and on her neck.
Me again with two important notices.
First:
Almost everybody here is assuming stuff and timelines based on the expression "When musicals were still fairly popular" wich is wrong.
Ent said,quote:
"sections of musicals which were still fairly popular".
*this means that even if musicals faded out, there were probably a very few which were still popular. So Timmy beeing in the chorus of them - means once again that he was good or good connected.
Second:
The understudy.
Again the Ent quote:
One night the lead actress was unable to perform and there was no understudy
*could also mean that there was no understudy at all, not just unavailable that night. Smal local theatre = cutting costs and stuff like today ...??? So researching for names won´t probably bring it up. Funny cuz it states the audience none the wiser. Hou would that critics got on that info if not tipped of? Again Timmy would have given them another name, not his and probably not his later Shimmy name.
What is killing me is that JJ's wife was "timmy's" roommate.
If JJ is 90 this would put the roommate situation between 1927 - 1940.
I'm assuming that they were living in or near Hollywood and were all single girls.
If JJ is A.C. Lyles then the roommate is
Martha Vickers
She was born in 1918 - her credits start @ 1940 as a crew member.
So let say Timmy and Martha are roommates in the Late late 30's - early 40's before Vickers married Lyles.
Does anyone know anything about Martha Vickers?
Also is AC gay/closeted?
I have been researching this all weekend and come to the conclusion that Timmy MUST be an obscure actor/actress. I'm not implying that its NOT Kay Kendall, but I think that this BI is going to require A TON more digging.
I'm researching actresses that won a major award then disappeared and I think david has a great idea about researching actresses with scars.
eh, back to the drawing board...
Judy Holliday's pics showing possible scar below left ear and on neck: here's one and here's the other.
As much as I wanted the actress to be Alice Brady, I must now concur with others that Kay Kendall and William Grant are one and the same. From looking at and comparing many photos of the two, you can see that their jawline, hairline and and even their ears are the same. I found a photo of Grant with a very noticeable scar above his left eye, and another of Kay in pajamas. Her bare arms, legs and feet are certainly "manly" looking!
@calla
that is makeup and light. but the second photo shows an horrible wig
:-)
i still like the idea of takin a holliday and going for beiing a woman
Maureen:
Has anyone explained why Rex Harrison was with Kay. Is the assumption that he is the closted actor?
I would have thought EL would had made a bigger deal about that and Rex leaving his wife to be with Kay.
That the issue for me - Harrison was a pussy hound and not the nicest man (relationship wise) plus I never heard a gay rumor attached to his name.
I'm not getting it -
Here is the address for a picture of William Grant showing his scar.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/horror/grantwilliams/grantwilliams14.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/grantwilliams.html&h=488&w=504&sz=40&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=L4pZo2OexkzQ-M:&tbnh=126&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgrant%2Bwilliams%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGGL,GGGL:2006-27,GGGL:en%26sa%3DN
maureen- i really thought that- i found him yesterday, everything works for me BUT then someone noticed the cleft chin...i can't explain that one!
you mean Grant Williams.
He doesn't look slight to me.
and he's very handsome
The cleft chin - plus - the nose isn't upturned like Kay Kendall's. I'm not seeing Kay in him at all.
Gary, I identified the closeted A- lister who never married as Dirk Bogarde.
Good work everyone. Once again took me a long time to catch up.
Who is on Josephine Hull now? Just wondering if there's been more progress there.
Alice Brady - she has such a show business family that I think it is VERY possible that they would not only go along with her scheme but actually help her concoct it.
Kay Kendall- I ust find it very hard to believe that the actress would be British, based on the blind.
Judy Holliday- As much as this is the most tantilizing prospect, it just sems she has been to well researched over the years and there are those childhood photos.
I just don't feel ANY of these are a perfect match.
I think the Garbow honorary Oscar as a "blessing" is an interesting train of thought. Certainly more plausible than that point when everyone thought it might have actually been Vivien Leigh!! LOL
gary- rex would have to be in on it...he def was not gay! he just helped female timmy go away....if indeed it is KK...READ BACK SOME..DIRK BOGARDE is the closeted actor A list in 1950s england.
Oh, one more thing. "Born yesterday" is certainly NOT an obscure film and it would most certainly be at Blockbuster.
thanks Twisted.
I'm not buying Kate Kendall - I want too -because it's a better story.
I'm still stuck on the roommate situation and JJ's wife.
And since I can't get passed that Grant Williams doesn't fit - unless JJ isn't AC then Grant being Timmy could be a could guess - dying in 1985 is interesting and his backround does fit EL bio of Timmy.
ro'co wrote:
"Kay Kendall- I ust find it very hard to believe that the actress would be British, based on the blind."
You're believing the bio of a fake person. What better way to be able to lie about your background than by saying you're from another country?
alright there cannot be that many A listers that never married,as far as i cuont we have only named 3
About Alice Brady? Why everybody keeps saying that the family would do this or that to help?
If Timmy took that name it has nothing to do with that family.
Except: Shimmy was the first to be here she beiing Alice Brady, then decided to be a man, called itself Timmy and jumped from one side to the other. Then yes, the family would feel compelled to do something about that. Since gay lesbians would have the same closet problems. This could explain why Timmy wasnt as good as Shimmy. But would never explain the cheap jobs.
maybe if we can name the lover we'll find timmy. he had the LEAD with this guy prior to the role we're looking for....?
TS - What better way to be able to lie about your background than by saying you're from another country?
I think that's a good point, absolutely. I just think it is an ETENSIVE bio as opposed to a more braod stroke out there. Then again, if the family is in on it. Ugh. I don't know. i wat to know who the TEN people are. Thats quite a lot of people to keep a secret this big, if you think about it.
3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead, as they say.
I WAS thinking that Grant Williams could be involved in this too. He worked sporadically, but enough to rule him out as Timmy's male counterpart.
Lets resume.
Big closeted Alister plays with Shimmy. Cool movie still in rent. Shimmy goes on to be Best Actress OR Supporting Actress and winning then getting off in no time. Wich makes some lists of WINNERS, not nominees.
We have three closeted Alister who were never married. But they did make movies wich are not classics, nor in rent today. It should be easier to find shimmy first. Then based on the scar the Timmy. Except if Timmy is a nick/stage name, Like Bill "TheCigar" Clinton. Wich would spoil a lot of references here, because probably referred to his real name. If he was known he would return to his original name, after Shimmy. Going on the road with his theatre could be another, or not, since he wasnt famous.
There must be a reason why ent called him Timmy. And not Name, Surname.
Just another thought on ENT
with this post being spread through the internet, he will gain a lot of popularity... :-)
he will become his own BI
:-)
ds= the closeted A LISTERS never married: victor mature, james dean,and dirk bogarde are all in award winning films
I agree dchingis-
The Timmy has to be for a reason. The obvious thing, which has happened a lot, is going back to Lassie. As odd as it would be, I think it is wirth exploring if any of the women in question ever made an appearnce on any incarnation of the series. A long shot, but worth exploring.
the always single is a big clue many had fake marriages
Well how about this, ro'co....
Award winning actress Elizabeth Taylor acted in TWO Lassie movies.
I don't think that's a connection, but you asked for one, and so there you have it.
Great resarch and comments from everyone so far. I've authored several books on film, and here's my take on a few things. It's not Judy Holliday; her real surname was Tuvim, thus the "holiday" rename. Plus, she's had bios written about her. I don't think this actress would have any bios (hard-cover books, I mean) written about her. She would have info about her in "collections" - but that info would all "end" the same: she either disappeared, retired, or died.
I think the award show is definitely Oscars; go with that choice. The career (female) definitely ends about 2-3 years after the Oscar win.
I think it's one of the lesser known (as of today) Supporting Actress winners.
The "clue" about Topeka to Broadway intrigued me also. "Topeka" is a strange choice for ENT to use, given all the cities across the US from which to choose.
Yes, I'd read all the previous posts, and saw the Josephine Hull connection to Topeka. I think Hull's a distinct possibility.
Another Hollywood writer and I discussed this. A friend of his was leaning towards Jo Van Fleet. Another good possibility.
So, I suppose I'd lean towards Alice Brady, Josephine Hull, Jo Van Fleet, Claire Trevor. Fore me, Judy Holliday, Kay Kendall are out.
Everyone is doing a great job of research and comments. If it's true, which I believe it is, then it's a great story.
But, a similar story was told in the 1970 release "Dinah East" which is not actually available on DVD.
Afterthought: The use of "Timmy" is interesting. I seem to recall a Timmy being associated with Margaret Rutherford.
I'll keep reading everyone else's input avidly.
Haha. Thanks TS.
twis.....u funny
Dang, I didn't think any of you would buy into the Liz Taylor is a man thing!!
jhm6, thanks for some interesting thoughts on this!! Care to share the names of the books you've written? We may want to read some one day.
Although I think Jo van Fleet worked for far too long to be Timmy, she is always interesting to me because of "Wild River"
At 46 years old she was hired by Kazan to play an elderly woman and did so incredibly convincingly. This coroborates a history of incredibly complicated character work that would be essential to pull this incredible Timy scheme off!
But, again, she worked too much in TV, stc after her biggest successes.
I'm fairly certain we ruled Jo Van Fleet out because she died in 1996, which would have been after Timmy died.
I've been reading, but too busy to get in on the research action. I think this tool might be useful:
http://members.aol.com/Mgmfanatic/index.html
If looking for cast photos from musicals (though it's specific to MGM). I typed in "Timmy" to IMDB and came up with Dimitri Tiomkin; who was a composer--working on musicals. Perusing the cast lists, I came up with Benny Rubin--who acted quite a bit on stage and screen (with a noticeable gap from 1942-1948). He doesn't quite fit b/c he died in 1986; and was married once. However, I do see a scar on his eyebrow. You think he looks like any of your female suspects?
http://www.willishenry.com/c-50%20w%20benny%20rubin.jpg
Sorry if this doesn't help you at all.
btw, I'm not a terrible speller. My laptop keys stick and when I type fast letters get missed. I also tend to not proofread, much like EL!
Here's a link to the books, Twisted Sister:
http://www.writers.net/writers/4513
I was snopping around into everyone's "bedroom ways" when I wrote a couple of them. I never encountered this tale. But, surprising Hollywood stories popup all the time.
Sorry, I must have overlooked Jo Van Fleet being eliminated in the earlier posts.
jhm6, thanks for the link. Your books look fascinating! I'm guessing you've heard some dirt, as well.
Not to worry, we've probably eliminated the real Timmy by now, and with all the posts here, it's really hard to keep up.
New here.....but completely fascinated.
The research you all have done so far is amazing and thanks for giving me so much to think about.
I've read through all of this and I apologize if this was already mentioned and perhaps I missed it, but has anyone seen this comment from another site?
http://blinditems.typepad.com/dish/2007/08/the-actress-who.html
"I can't Judy Holliday out of my head. She did B'way and H'wood, but didn't have a huge amount of work. She only had a couple of films after her Oscar for Born Yesterday, which fits, and she died at the young age of 43. She had a son, and nowhere near enough movies under her belt to qualify, but who knows...The reason I can't get her out of my head is I know an older lady (now in a nursing home) who knew her. I remember her telling me once that Judy Holliday had a bad skin condition. It had to be covered
up with loads of heavy makeup. She certainly had the personality. And she looked like a woman, not a man in drag, which is what the item says."
I had completely discounted Judy Holliday because of pictures of her "chest" area because it didn't look like that could have been faked, but I found this comment about her skin condition to be interesting.
Hi ... Another newbie here ... Hoping to help solve this. Wondering why we list Victor Mature as one of three possible A-listers that Never Married; IMDB says he as married 5 times. Another, James Dean, died too young at 24 to have a relationship that lasted several years. Doesn't that leave us with just Dirk Bogarde (of the 3 listed by captiva). Sorry if this is a repeat ...
This is of no consequence whatsoever, but I found it really funny:
The Golden Horse Shoe Revue's set/inside of the saloon was designed by Harper Goff. He also designed a saloon for the movie Calamity Jane.
In looking up Calamity Jane on Wikipedia, this bit jumped out at me:
(from Wiki) ...Unfortunately, the men are anything but pleased when the latest woman turns out to be a man named Francis Fryer, who does a stage act in drag and goes under the name Frances Fryer
Ironic, much? ;)
Oh, and I also had a serious glance at the cast list, I know, clutching at straws, but it's a link (albeit a very small one) all the same!
Ents pic has Legends of Hollywood on it. Google that.
The posted poster was made by kurt degen
Also this may let ring some bells. I looked over and over - i dont see anything any more:
http://www.filmsite.org/afi100decades.html
http://www.filmsite.org/bestsuppactress.html
ellen sry my notes are so mixed up!
thanks for clarifyin...can you think of anyoune else? james dean had enough time i think..no?
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