Timmy Hint
There seems to be a very popular guess that everyone is making and one website made it their official guess. However, if you read the blind you realize this popular guess makes no sense. Timmy the actress gave up acting very soon after winning the award, so when you look at IMDB and see an actress worked for many years after her win, the guess doesn't make any sense despite the fact that everything else fits. It's easy to make up biographies, but you can't hide the fact that this actress who is a popular guess was in so many movies after her win.
1,156 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 800 of 1156 Newer› Newest»jc wrote:
" jc said...
TS- Adams apple, perchance? ;)"
YES, I do think I see an adam's apple in that one Getty photo!
I, the problem with Judy Holliday is that she continued working for nine years after winning the award, and EL wrote:
"Timmy the actress gave up acting very soon after winning the award, so when you look at IMDB and see an actress worked for many years after her win, the guess doesn't make any sense despite the fact that everything else fits."
This is why I don't think he was talking about Kay Kendall when he said there was a popular guess on some boards that was wrong. She did NOT work for many years following her win.
Caesar Romero was the other never-married actor mentioned but whether he could be considered A-List....
Gillian, right! And Sal Mineo was another who was named.
May I introduce another name? Thelma Ritter.
Take a look at her pic on wiki...looks a little masculine; also, I have a funny feeling I've seen her as a man. (I know, we're all going a little crazy.)
She did win some awards; co-starred with Clifton Webb (never married) in Titanic. She shows up in films around 1947, when she's supposedly 42 years old. Won some minor film awards and a Tony. Continued in films actively for five years after the Tony, with a couple of films after that more disbursed in time.
Kenny Baker, having been in many films -- especially musicals -- drops out of films in 1947, when he would be 34. In The Harvey Girls, the featured song is "On the Atchison, Topeka, and the Santa Fe", Baker appears to have a scar above his left eye, mid-forehead in his solo number, "Wait and See". He died in the right timetable (1985, age 72). His wiki doesn't mention having been married. Appeared in 17 films.
Does she look a little like him?
Problems: He didn't come from the northeast; she didn't win any Academy Awards or Golden Globes, although she won other film awards. She is reported to have had 2 children. Her wiki bio suggests she started her career late because of child rearing. She is also reported as having died in 1969 of a heart attack.
But our Timmy/female either disappeared from the face of the earth, or faked a death. And I think there's a resemblance.
If someone can find a picture of Thelma Ritter with a scar above her left eye in mid forehead, I'll treat them to an ice cream sundae.
Twisted Sister-Although, I could have been imagining it, I'm seriously questioning every old hollywood actress now-some of them look decidely masculine lol.
In my head, girl-Timmy is fairly short, slim/slender (not very muscled-this would make them too obviously masculine), fair and with blonde hair (as befitting Ent's "pale features" description). That said, there was such a thing as hair dye, so she-timmy might not necessarily have fair hair.
Arghh-this is driving me mad!
My first instinct on this was Judy Holiday.
As for faking boobage, before breast implants were falsies, so that's easy to fake.
Judy Holiday was a man. That would rock Hollywood to the core.
Now we just need to find a man with a bad skin condition and a scar and we'll have a match. I'd suspect he'd have to be as heavily made up as Liberace.
If we assume EL is talking about the Oscars, and we take out all the actresses that are too famous and high profile for this to be, we're left with:
Best Supporting Actress:
Gale Sondergaard - worked too long after winning
Fay Bainter - worked too long after winning
Hattie McDaniel - worked too long after winning
Jane Darwell - worked too long after winning
Mary Astor - died after 1985
Teresa Wright - died after 1985
Katina Paxinou - worked too long after winning
Anne Baxter - worked too long after winning
Celeste Holm - worked too long after winning
Clair Trevor - died after 1985
Mercedes McCambridge - died after 1985
Kim Hunter - died after 1985
Gloria Grahame - worked too long after winning
Donna Reed - worked too long after winning
Jo Van Fleet - died after 1985
Dorothy Malone - worked too long after winning
Miyoshi Umeki - worked too long after winning
Wendy Hiller - died after 1985
Best Actress (elminating VERY famous women here, too):
Norma Shearer - worked too long after winning
Luise Rainer - still alive
Judy Holliday - worked too long after winning
Anna Magnani - worked too long after winning
That leaves us with:
Marie Dressler
Alice Brady
Josephine Hull
It can't be Greta Garbo, she never really vanished, there are a lot of pap shots of her as an old lady. She also never hid what appeared to be her bisexualtity. She did not do theater after she started doing movies, and she never did afterwards. She did not die until 1990, and there are photos of her shortly before her death.
Dietrich had too many high profile affairs, in addition to having a daughter who looked like her.
If Timmy won regularly for this role, does that mean he was on TV, or that he won a bunch of awards for a single film?
I'm sure this is NOTHING, but funny anyway.
Check out the first pic on the left:
http://images.google.com/images?q=Alice+Brady&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en&start=20&sa=N&ndsp=20
Twisted Sister-LOL!!!! If they only knew.....
Whenever I look at Alice Brady photos, this one always gives me the creeps *shudder*
http://silent-movies.com/Ladies/Brady/Brady12.jpg
Anyway....
EL specifically eliminates the official guess of another site where the blind was reposted. Were there any other official guesses made early in the game besides Kay Kendall?
Actually, Kay Kendall wasn't a popular guess early on.
JC, what a hoot! I'm guessing EL had it put there to torment us.
If we were going by looks, I would have to suggest Grayson Hall
Gillian (10:31) thanks for posting the whole story about Kay Kendall undressing in public. Not showing much boobage in some photos doesn’t mean she is a man, nor does a shadow that looks like it could be an Adam’s apple from some angles. She was just a tall and bony woman. That gave her the opportunity to do a lot of high-fashion modeling, which basically means constantly (un)dressing in front of other people, so she was used to it.
She fretted about her boyish frame and joked about having the body of a transvestite. In the repressive 50s, that would be strong evidence against her actually being a transvestite. I know others may pounce on this as further evidence that she was a man, but I just don’t buy it. I’m going to pick up a copy of her bio, but from what I’ve read so far apparently she had an abortion and was hemorrhaging during the filming of Genevieve. Would that be something that a T-girl would make up?
Actually, the Kay Kendall guess was posted on Blind Item Collective on Thursday.
I'm still stuck on what kind of scar timmy had?
Considering he had a skin condition that caused a lack of body hair, and then also developed hives, it'd be reasonable to believe the scar was the result of a skin imperfection.
But then I wondered: could it be due to a surgical procedure (not including plastic/cosmetic surgery). I googled "Hollywood actresses + scar" and came up with Catherine Zeta Jones and her Tracheotomy scar (I never even knew she had one-this BI is making me learn a lot ;) ). Ok, so I know CZJ has no relevance whatosever here, but it did make me think it could be a similar kind of scar.
I too have a trachie scar and sometimes it will show up quite a lot, at other times it will be barely visible. And it's not big either....
Just thinking out loud really with this. Another thing: if Timmy was prone to hives/skin complaints then this could have been linked with a respiratory problem (that could, possibly-ok it's a huge stretch really- result in a trachie being performed)-in much the same way Eczema and Asthma are closely linked.
Ok, sorry, enough rambling from me, i'll shut up now lol.
Aaaarrrrrrg! I can't make up my mind between KK and AB! KK and Grant Williams look so much alike (and he has the scar). But KK's background is so difficult to reconcile with Williams' and the clues that have been provided. Then I found this picture, and its hard to believe that her body could possibly be a man's!
http://www.leninimports.com/kay_kendall_gallery_2.jpg
Somewhat OT, I also think the Donald Novis angle is a big fat red herring that ENT has thrown us, although he might not make a bad looking woman!
Thanks, TS for reminding me of the info about the part of her work resume showing parts for work 9 years after.....back to more research......how fun!
And so many people talking about excel spreadsheets....I'm definitely thinking I need one now....
lwall, I thought you were talking about a popular guess here.
I, don't forget the pie charts!
Maureen, have you ever seen pics of trannies? I'd kill for some of those bodies. (even though their boobs are fake)
Was Tab Hunter considered A-List? Could he have been our closet case? He just came out a couple of years ago, right?
Following up on a previous poster (whose name is lost in the mists of time. :) I googled for Sunset Blvd images and discovered that the pic of the car is from the trailer for Sunset Blvd, the movie:
http://tinyurl.com/ywndfq
Did we know this already? It is way to hard to review all previous posts. Now to look at the cast of SB. Not sure if I am looking for Shimmy or Timmy
Keep in mind She-Timmy's bio probably is fiction, but the list of film credits probably is real.
Think i found the SCAR.
Marie Dressler is it. She fits far too much into it. And as far i can see she has a scar between the eyes, above the left eye. It looks like one of the "usual" vertical wrinkles. Also some pics show that her skin is suffering.
It can be seen in more pics, now that we know what we are looking for.
http://de.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fde.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dmarie%2520dressler%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dmoz2&w=332&h=400&imgurl=www.meredy.com%2Fdressler03.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.meredy.com%2Fdresslertriv.htm&size=16.4kB&name=dressler03.jpg&p=marie+dressler&type=jpeg&no=13&tt=161&oid=f964e43203cf4d10&ei=UTF-8
http://www.northernstars.ca/NSCollection/dressler_marie.jpg
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1154/0792_0794.jpg&imgrefurl=http://us.imdb.com/gallery/mptv/1154/0792_0794.jpg.html%3Fpath%3Dpgallery%26path_key%3DDressler%252C%2520Marie%26seq%3D2&h=450&w=304&sz=21&hl=de&start=5&um=1&tbnid=kYLGlBsY5CerKM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=86&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmarie%2Bdressler%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26sa%3DN
Anyone "sees" timmy here? Imagine just the face. Maybe Shimmy wears a neanderthalous fatsuit.
Re: Sunset Blvd the movie, Montgomery Clift, a never married, gay man, was apparently supposed to be in it. Actually, the part was written for him, but some lady, whose name escapes me, talked him out of the part. Only problem is, Clift was never in the closet. Seems he was a miserable person though. I got all this info from his IMDB bio.
Okay, here I go with another really long post. (All you KK conspiracy theorists can skip this one, I don’t even mention her.) I think the BI gives a clear timeline that narrows Shimmy’s award down to the five-year span of 1953-1958. The problem is that there’s no one who fits the clues during that interval--or any other, as far as I can tell. We can quibble about a year or two either way, but basically the timeline seems to be pretty straightforward.
Timmy worked his way across the country from east to west until he arrived in Hollywood at a time when the studio system was “still going strong.” The widely accepted dates for the heyday of the studio system are 1927-1948.
“Timmy worked often, but nothing more than a few lines here or there and spent a great deal of time in the "chorus" sections of musicals which were still fairly popular.”
Hollywood musicals topped the box office in 1933-1938. They continued to be both “fairly popular” and produced by the studio system through the early 1950s. That gives us a time window of about 1939 at the earliest to about 1953 at the latest for Timmy’s first stay in Hollywood.
Timmy stayed in LA long enough to complete at least one studio contract. I don’t know how long a bit player’s studio contract would likely be (any ideas, jhm6?), but the BI implies that he was there at least 2 years. He also couldn’t have left Hollywood much later than 1953, which was basically the end of musicals under the studio system. Then he spent “almost two years” creating his new persona.
So Shimmy probably didn’t appear in Hollywood before 1943 (Timmy’s earliest arrival in 1939 + 2 yrs. minimum in LA + 2 yrs. on the road). And she probably didn’t appear after 1955 (Tommy’s latest departure in 1953 +2 years on the road).
Shimmy was cast in her award-winning role two years later. Since Ent gives only the date that Shimmy was cast in the role, we may need to add another year for the movie to be made and issued. If we add 2 to 3 years to Shimmy’s timeline, then she would have received the award between 1945 and 1958.
Now we get the biggest clue of all--Shimmy won “the very big award, the one with all the television viewers.” I know there has been a lot of discussion about which award Shimmy won. But a straightforward reading of the BI clearly implies that it was an Oscar. If that isn’t the award that she won, Ent is being mighty cute with us here.
The Oscars were first televised in 1953. We can speculate that the BI is describing current-day viewership and tossing us a red herring, but here I’m trying to follow exactly what is written in the BI. (As you’ll see, it really doesn’t matter.) If we combine the TV clue with our previous timeline, Shimmy would have to have won her Oscar between 1953 and 1958, inclusive.
Others have posted lists of Oscar winners, and they are easy to look up on Wikipedia, so I won’t repeat them here. All the actresses who won during 1953-1958 can be dismissed on the basis of verifiable facts. Grace Kelly and Ingrid Bergman had well-documented pregnancies. Anna Magnani was neither “pale” nor a native English speaker. All the others had long careers in film and/or TV after winning the award. The only one who has been guessed much is Jo Van Fleet--but she did films well into the 1960s, and Ent’s latest hint confirms that the length of Shimmy’s career after her award is a key point.
So (as others have done) I went back and checked every Oscar-winning actress between 1935 and 1970--and there is no one who fits, folks. For one thing, as twisted sister’s list shows, most of them worked too long after the award. We can discount an actress’s past before she hit Hollywood, but if she was captured on film after the timeline Ent gave us, it can’t be her.
My favorites all along have been Jo Van Fleet, Josephine Hull, and Anne Revere, but sadly they can all be ruled out.
-- Jo Van Fleet appeared in Cool Hand Luke in 1967, 12 years after winning her Oscar.
-- Someone has theorized that a younger man assumed Josephine Hull’s identity--but she worked steadily on Broadway between 1923 and 1954, with big hits in 1936, 1941, 1944, and 1954. Her Hollywood career took place right in the middle of her stage fame (her 1950 Oscar was for reprising her stage role in Harvey).
--Anne Revere looks so close. But she had a long (although blacklisted) career after winning the Oscar in 1944--she won a Tony in 1960 and was working in TV soaps in the 1970s.
Although I just love considering the possibility that Judy Holiday was really a man, her career was also too long. She appeared on stage 13 years after her Oscar win.
Is there anything here that doesn’t sound right to the Hollywood experts among us? It all seems pretty basic to me.
Since a straightforward reading of the clues doesn’t add up, I wish Ent would at least give us more hints about which of the clues we are misinterpreting. It was helpful to be told to focus on a short career after the Oscar, even though that just made it clear that I had to eliminate my favorite candidate, Jo Van Fleet.
PS: I think it’s a very big clue that Timmy “reversed his original trek to LA,” meaning that he worked from west to east this time and so could have ended up on Broadway.
PPS: Since Timmy never got “much further than bit parts,” he can’t be Kenny Baker. Baker was a bonafide star, although mostly in B movies. He played the romantic lead in two Marx Brothers movies (1937 and 1939). Also, we have no reason to think that Timmy was a singer. The members of the “chorus” in a Hollywood musical just needed to look the part and (maybe) have some dancing skills.
I have something to comment on and if it was already mentioned, so be it.
"JJ" is 90 yrs old. (He'd old.)
Some of the facts that he told ENT could have been fuzzy at best based on his memory. ENT would assume them as fact, and then pass them on into his BI.
I am reading lots of posts with guesses that are "almost 100% accurate except for one little discrepancy"
How do we know that one or two of the facts listed in the BI were not changed ever so slightly over the years based on failing memory?
Even that story about Richard Gere and the Gerbil has gone through different incarnations over time based on retelling and distance.
I'm just saying...
I am reading the original BI tooth and nail and letter by letter like everyone else, but cant help but wonder if one or two facts got changed over the years and remembered slightly differently based on age and time.
Think i found the SCAR.
Marie Dressler is it. She fits far too much into it. And as far i can see she has a scar between the eyes, above the left eye. It looks like one of the "usual" vertical wrinkles. Also some pics show that her skin is suffering.
It can be seen in more pics, now that we know what we are looking for.
http://de.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fde.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dmarie%2520dressler%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dmoz2&w=332&h=400&imgurl=www.meredy.com%2Fdressler03.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.meredy.com%2Fdresslertriv.htm&size=16.4kB&name=dressler03.jpg&p=marie+dressler&type=jpeg&no=13&tt=161&oid=f964e43203cf4d10&ei=UTF-8
http://www.northernstars.ca/NSCollection/dressler_marie.jpg
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1154/0792_0794.jpg&imgrefurl=http://us.imdb.com/gallery/mptv/1154/0792_0794.jpg.html%3Fpath%3Dpgallery%26path_key%3DDressler%252C%2520Marie%26seq%3D2&h=450&w=304&sz=21&hl=de&start=5&um=1&tbnid=kYLGlBsY5CerKM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=86&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmarie%2Bdressler%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:de:official%26sa%3DN
Anyone "sees" timmy here? Imagine just the face. Maybe Shimmy wears a neanderthalous fatsuit.
Ok, maybe the "win" was the nomination for the AA. If that is the case, then my pick is Maggie McNamara who was nominated for The Moon is Blue. She has a scar on her forehead, made a movie with Clifton Webb (Three Coins in the Fountain), and has a picture on the web with a hideous make up job...maybe covering a skin condition. She virtually disappeared after a very few movies and supposedly died in 1978.
Concerning the pic from the Sunset Boulevard trailer: In 1950 Judy Holliday won over Gloria Swanson for SB; and Josephine Hull beat Nancy Olson who also was in SB.
Not sure if it is relevant but it certainly muddies the waters
Harpo, given your thought process here, it is possible that EL is off by a couple of years. That means that of the three remaining Oscar winners, the only one it could be is Josephine Hull, who won in 1951. Marie Dressler and Alice Brady both won in the 1930's.
Kim, given the way EL wrote this:
"When it came to the very big award, the one with all the television viewers, Timmy won again. There he was, the woman who was really a gay man was being honored for being the Best Supporting Actress/Best Actress of the year. Its up to you to figure out which of the two he won."
I don't think he's talking about a nomination, he's talking about a win.
I've seen Alice Brady as Angelica in My Man Godfrey & I don't think she was Timmy. She, like Josephine Hull, was feminine, though not pretty. Alice was quite also quite shrill.
Gail Patrick, who played Carole Lombard's sister in MMG was kind of masculine/dramatic-looking, but she died in 1980.
Jennifer Jones is supposed to still be alive. So she would fit as someone who is presumed to still be alive. Isn't that what the BI says, that she vanished and is not listed as dead? Timmy has a DOD, but his woman doesn't?
I'm getting all confused with so much info being mentioned. I did buy "The Academy Awards Handbook" today.
What about Hope Emerson? She had a nom in 1950, but would have been in her 80s by the 1980s. She was also over 6' tall & 230lbs.
Or Ida Kaminska?
Venus, if you're getting confused, it's because it's very confusing!! It might be best to leave the "only nominated but didn't win" actresses out of this equation, because that can only add to the confusion....lol.
ENT - ANOTHER HINT, DUDE!
Maureen, take it from someone who shares your name. You're probably a wild Catholic Irish girl who has seen more than you want to post here.
*wink**wink* indeed!
(or am I just talking about myself here?)
Twisted, your last post (5:26) makes me wonder, you're not the kind of sister that wears a habit, are you? Not that there's anything wrong with that :)
Twisted Sister said...
..."a gay man was being honored for being the Best Supporting Actress/Best Actress of the year. Its up to you to figure out which of the two he won."
I don't think he's talking about a nomination, he's talking about a win.
(sigh) I wish I'd reread that part before I researched all the Golden Globe Newcomer of the Year awards or whatever they were called in the 50s. But really interesting reading about Bella Darvi.
I'm checking out the AA noms--they may have won GG or other awards for the AA nominated role. There are a LOT of obscure Oscar winners, esp. in the supporting actress cat.
I'm starting to think that the key to figuring out this BI is determining who Timmy was before be became an award winning actress.
and I think we need another clue.
This is such a fascinating BI!
Does anyone else go to bed with this BI on their mind? I get to the point where I get the creeps and get scared...lol...sad but true!
There is an entry on IMDB for Timmy Hawkins that has 25 movie credits, including Singing in the Rain, that are all listed as "uncredited." There is no picture, and no bio info. Does anyone else know how to find more info? I suppose it's too much to hope that EL would use Timmy's real name, though.
Hey ENT!!
It's Sunday night and time to throw us another bone!
Seriously, I think ENT's source is probably very distinguished and an authority on all of Hollywood, but a 90 year old gentleman? Surely many of the facts should be taken with a grain of salt.
I'm not an ageist, but memories fade and people half JJ's age often have trouble remembering specifics that happened a while back.
Gillian, I hear you. I've gotten soc confused I've had to read through this thing a dozen times, and I still don't remember it all.
Rake, no worries, I'm no nun! At least not that my two kids are aware of.
Gamma, I think it's going to be impossible to identify Timmy if he was just a bit part player.
Maria, we're all obsessed and we're not going to sleep until Christmas at this rate!
That may or may not be a scar on Marie Dressler's forehead. However, she doesn't fit any of the clues. She was a major vaudeville star long before she started in films (she began by starring in Chaplin's first silent film for Mac Sennett in 1914).
During the gap in her filmography between 1918 and 1929 she returned to vaudeville. Did I mention that she was a well-established STAR long before she went to H'wood? She didn't have to make up a backstory because everyone at the time knew who she was.
When she returned to Hollywood in 1929, MGM studio boss Louis B. Mayer called her "the most adored person ever to set foot in the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer studio." That’s how famous she was.
Also, there were no musicals yet, since movies were still SILENT at that time. So her alter ego couldn’t have done any chorus work in musical films before that. (Not that he would have been hired for it, anyway—even if there was a slender man inside her “fatsuit,” his face would have ruled him out.)
She did fudge her birthdate, but that was such as standard practice for stage ladies at the time that it would have been more suspicious if she hadn’t.
Yeah, I think of this BI all night, too. In fact that's why I could have sworn it was Jo Van Fleet. It came to me in a dream, where it just seemed so obvious.
I commend all of you on your research. I too have spent the last few days glued to the computer reading all the comments. My mother is 70 years old, and has a huge scrapbook full of movie stars from the 40s and 50s, back when they actually signed their publicity photos themselves. I've now got her addicted, and we are searching the pics for any evidence of the scar mentioned. My question is this: if this blind item is revealed (with the evidence to back it up) can the academy (assuming it's the Oscars/Golden Globes) take the award away based on gender? ie; winning for actress and your a male
..."a gay man was being honored for being the Best Supporting Actress/Best Actress of the year. Its up to you to figure out which of the two he won.".....
ok I googled both nominations simulaneously and I vote for Fay Bainter. I see a death listed, and I don't see a scar. I also see she is buried in Arlington National Cementary, which would cause a stir. Unless it's an empty grave. Going back to lurk more now.
* Fay Bainter (Best Actress for White Banners (1938) and Best Supporting Actress for Jezebel (1938)*)
* Teresa Wright (Best Actress for The Pride of the Yankees (1942) and Best Supporting Actress for Mrs. Miniver (1942)*)
* Jessica Lange (Best Actress for Frances (1982) and Best Supporting Actress for Tootsie (1982)*)
* Sigourney Weaver (Best Actress for Gorillas in the Mist (1987) and Best Supporting Actress for Working Girl (1987))
* Holly Hunter (Best Actress for The Piano (1993)* and Best Supporting Actress for The Firm (1993))
* Emma Thompson (Best Actress for The Remains of the Day (1993) and Best Supporting Actress for In the Name of the Father (1993))
* Julianne Moore (Best Actress for Far From Heaven (2002) and Best Supporting Actress for The Hours (2002))
But she (Bainter) worked 30 years past her nomination and win, so what do I know. What an engrossing BI.
The funny thing about Alice Brady is that she appeared in The GAY Divorcee
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025164/
I think she is a good choice although I would have loved it if it had been Miyoshi Umeki
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0880855/
with Marlon Brando being the closeted lover -- I thought there was issue over the legality of his marriages by the time of his death.
Maria said...
Does anyone else go to bed with this BI on their mind? I get to the point where I get the creeps and get scared...lol...sad but true!
I was hoping someone else thought it was creepy! It is very scary thinking that people aren't what they say they are, or what they appear to be. There is talk about some old stars really being black and just "passing" for white, but race is nothing compared with being the opposite sex.
angel: As Gillian posted earlier today, a scar is very unlikely to be visible in a female star's Hollywood studio portrait.
You can safely assume that any studio portraits, especially signed fan pics, have been heavily airbrushed. So I doubt that you and your Mom will be able to find the scar in any of Shimmy’s photos. However, you are working with real photos, rather than 72dpi Web images. So you might find something that we can't see on the Web.
For example, see if your Mom's collection has any pics of Carole Lombard. She had a horrible car accident early in her career and basically had to have the left side of her face sewed back on. Most likely they wouldn't even show that side of her face in a portrait--but if they did, I bet you wouldn't see anything unusual. (And no, CL isn't Shimmy, folks.)
Most likely we'll only see Shimmy's scar in less formal photos and films, where a quirk of lighting or fading makeup might occasionally give it away.
I do think that a scar might appear on a man's studio portrait, if they thought it would make him look more masculine. So-called “dueling scars” used to be considered dashing and romantic. But if Timmy were only a bit player, he wouldn't have any signed fan photos.
It just dawned on me, that as we look for the closeted A list actor, we need to find where he dated a woman for several years. If he met Timmy when Timmy was a woman, then wouldn't it be convenient for them to go out as man and woman - even if he knew that Timmy was actually a male. Or did they have a relationship totally out of the public eye?
It does crack me up to think that the beard of the a list actor would actually be a man who has a created a female persona.
If the award EL speaks of is the Oscar, and all but three winners have been eliminated because they either worked too long after winning or died after 1985:
Marie Dressler
Alice Brady
Josephine Hull
Then it HAS TO BE Alice Brady, because the other two could not be described as 'slight'.
This BI has embedded itself in my brain too! I feel like ENT has hidden some major easter egg in his posts and I can't find it!
I agree, trying to find Timmy pre-makeover is probably impossible. But ENT suggested that pictures were still online somewhere. Hmmmm...
I am convinced they all look like men, I stared comparing features in photoshop and I'm seriously freaked out all of the women look so much like men that well I'm on a hunt to find a woman in old Hollywood. That might make it easier. Who can we rule out by them looking like a girl.
Venus,
No, on the contrary, part of me wants it to be Miyoshi Umeki exactly because it would have made sense if she were to be Japanese.
I had to look at wikipedia to refresh my memory about kabuki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabuki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan
soOoOooooo ... would have loved it Miyoshi's bio were fake.
I mean, her son is adopted after all.
Three choices:
1)
Marie Dressler was in Chasing Rainbows (1930) with Bessie Love
Bessie Love was in Poppies Are Also Flowers (1966) with Eli Wallach
Eli Wallach was in Mystic River (2003) with Kevin Bacon
2)
Alice Brady was in Metropolitan (1935) with Don Brodie
Don Brodie was in Murphy's Law (1986) with David Hayman
David Hayman was in Where the Truth Lies (2005) with Kevin Bacon
3)
Josephine Hull was in Lady from Texas, The (1951) with Howard Duff
Howard Duff (I) was in Double Negative (1980) with Maury Chaykin
Maury Chaykin was in Where the Truth Lies (2005) with Kevin Bacon
oh wait. Wrong Game. Sorry. My bad.
(Thought I would try to make you laugh tonight)
I see how Alice Brady could work but the time period throws me all off.
Her death so soon after her oscar win is really suspicious. IF it was Brady, who would the A list lover she lived with be?
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
THAT IS AWESOME
by the by ...
Josephine Hull guest starred in "I've Got a Secret"
Marie Dressler appeared in "Let us be Gay"
Alice Brady was in "The Gay Divorcee", "Mind your Own Business", "Hush Money", "Should Ladies Behave" and "End of the road"
Just saying :)
I just found a rather interesting detail regarding Josephine Hull. I happened across the name of another famous actor who was born in Newtonville, MA just four years after her. His name is Julian Eltinge. Upon googling his name, I came across a fascinating website, an actual project, devoted to his great memory. Julian was.....get this.....one of the greatest drag performers in the history of the American Theater.
"Julian Eltinge's life remains a mystery wrapped in an enigma. The details of his vaudeville and stage career, and his films, are for the most part readily available. But the facts of his personal life, from his birthdate to his cause of death are either ambiguous or contradictory."
I kind of doubt this is a strong link that may connect he and Josephine, but its fascinating reading. I sent an email to the director of the project asking for further information. You never know............
What do you think about this:
Kenny Baker vs Judy Holliday
The original BI certainly *implies strongly* that the win is an Oscar, but uses some twisted language to avoid actually mentioning the name of the "very big award"--which leads me to believe it's *not* the Oscar, if you follow my reasoning. Allowing us to think "Oscar" both misleads us and inflates the importance of the BI. (Not that it needs inflating--like all of you, I'm obsessed.)
On the nomination as "win" theory, it's right there in the message we're replying to now: "Timmy the actress gave up acting after winning the award." Don't think there's any ambiguity there--except about *which* award she won. Ent is a lawyer and could have clarified on this point, but has chosen not to.
With that, I'm sticking (provisionally) with Kay Kendall. I even went out and rented "Les Girls" (which is out of print--maybe unavailable at Blockbuster). Will be watching like a hawk tonight and will let you know if I spot a scar.
Oops! Here's the Julian Eltinge link:
http://www.thejulianeltingeproject.com/
I have solved it.
Merry Christmas!
:-)
This is it:
Col Tim McCoy went from Western Movies to being Marie Dressler and afterwards going on tour with the circus show.
Here are the scars, also you will find more resemblance (chin deviation to the right and more) depending on the pictures.
Here is Marie Dressler´s pic with the best visible scar
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1154/0792_0794.jpg
Here is Tim McCoy scar
magnify the last picture here: http://www.b-westerns.com/mccoy.htm
Also some pictures in his circus life or some posters of his movies show the caricatural "scar"
http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhibits/mccoy/tmccoy.htm
here Slides 64,65,66,67
Confirming Ents version about what Timmy did later in life:
With the demise of the Rough Riders, Tim McCoy's time as a screen hero was over. In later years, he would do a few 'guest' appearance roles, such as playing the cavalry troop leader in the AROUND THE WORLD IN EIGHTY DAYS (1956) epic. He also hosted a TV series in the early 1950s where he commented about the Indians, sign language, the Old West, etc.
For several years around the late 1950s, McCoy was the star attraction with the Carson Barnes Circus, and you'll find more info later in these webpages.
And for many years (approximately 1962-1974), he was part owner and toured with the Tommy Scott Caravan and Wild West Show (Johnny Mack Brown, Sunset Carson and Al 'Fuzzy' St. John also headlined the Scott show).
Source:
http://www.b-westerns.com/mccoy1.htm
I'm not officially on the KK train but I do think she has a scar above her right eyebrow that looks like a furrow line. It's noticeable in the Getty photos, bottom row, far right picture. She's wearing less makeup and her hair is brushed away from her face. All the other photos of her she's heavily made up (or photo retouched) and her hair covers that spot.
I keep going back to Josephine Hull though it too is not perfect. First off Newtonville is a neighborhood of Newton, not a town. It would be odd to list that as place of birth I think. She had a husband and child before going to Hollywood. That could be faked. Her IMDB says she is interred in the Newton Cemetery in Newtonville but no such cemetery exists. There's one in W. Newton and one in Newton Center. (Newton has something like 8 neighborhoods all referenced by name. Of course this could just be a mistake.
She won both a Golden Globe and an Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress for her role in Harvey. She also received a star on Hollywood Blvd.
The A-list actor could be Carey Grant in Arsenic and Old Lace. Though that seems like an odd pairing doesn't it? Unless of course Timmy is much younger than his female counterpoint. I keep thinking about Nathan Lane in BirdCage and and Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie, both men played older women convincingly. Also, Cary had 5 wives!
Things that make me go hmmm... She was on stage for a long time but only made 6 films. Just one film after her award and some tv before dying in 1957.
1951 - The Lady from Texas
1950 - Harvey
1944 - Arsenic and Old Lace
1932 - Careless Lady
1932 - After Tomorrow
1929 - The Bishop's Candlesticks
The other thing is there's no visible scar but she does have very craggy skin.
I have solved it.
Merry Christmas!
:-)
This is it:
Col Tim McCoy went from Western Movies to being Marie Dressler and afterwards going on tour with the circus show.
Here are the scars, also you will find more resemblance (chin deviation to the right and more) depending on the pictures.
Here is Marie Dressler´s pic with the best visible scar
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Mptv/1154/0792_0794.jpg
Here is Tim McCoy scar
magnify the last picture here: http://www.b-westerns.com/mccoy.htm
Also some pictures in his circus life or some posters of his movies show the caricatural "scar"
http://www.windriverhistory.org/exhibits/mccoy/tmccoy.htm
here Slides 64,65,66,67
Confirming Ents version about what Timmy did later in life:
With the demise of the Rough Riders, Tim McCoy's time as a screen hero was over. In later years, he would do a few 'guest' appearance roles, such as playing the cavalry troop leader in the AROUND THE WORLD IN EIGHTY DAYS (1956) epic. He also hosted a TV series in the early 1950s where he commented about the Indians, sign language, the Old West, etc.
For several years around the late 1950s, McCoy was the star attraction with the Carson Barnes Circus, and you'll find more info later in these webpages.
And for many years (approximately 1962-1974), he was part owner and toured with the Tommy Scott Caravan and Wild West Show (Johnny Mack Brown, Sunset Carson and Al 'Fuzzy' St. John also headlined the Scott show).
http://www.b-westerns.com/mccoy1.htm
Dschingis,
You're research is good but whatever you drinking, popping and/or smoking let's you see whatever I can't see. There is no way those two are the same person.
:(
David, that was a hoot.
Myrlin: I agree that Ent has left some wiggle room in regard to which award Shimmy won. In fact, if the other clues ARE correct, then I don't think it could be the Oscars. However, maybe it really was the Oscars, and we should be disregarding some other clue instead.
As far as I can tell, the only other main awards during the forties and fifties were the Golden Globes (begun in 1944). The SAG awards don't seem to start until the 90s. I'll check out all the GG winners close to my timeframe. But I think others have already done that and didn't come up with anything new.
Re Miyoshi Umeki: The studio system was a bastion of racial intolerance, and it's easy to forget just how bad it was. Miyoshi-Timmy would clearly have been an Asian man, which would have ruled him out for work in a musical chorus section.
(Same basic logic applies to Hattie McDaniel, who has also been mentioned a few times.)
Liza, my DH and I aren't seeing it either, but kudos to Dschingis for trying a new direction!
Can you all help clear this up for me?
Ent says that Timmy began getting hives as a result of the stress and scrutiny he was under during awards season:
"This award season was a blessing because it honored Timmy for his work, but at the same time the increased publicity and probes into his background were causing a great deal of stress and Timmy began getting hives and breaking out as the stress of trying to maintain three different persona's."
So he would not have had problems with the hives and scars during the filming of the movie - only after the movie was filmed and he started gaining attention for his performance.
Then Ent says:
"Sunday after brunch I went to Blockbuster and I rented the award winning film, and even knowing what I knew, when I watched it Sunday night it was almost impossible to tell. If you watch it carefully there is one giveaway which is a scar."
I do not understand how a scar could be there during the filming of the movie, if the hives came about afterwards as a result of the stress.
Ent even says that Timmy's great peformance in the film might be due to him being in love:
'Timmy was incredible in this role and whether his acting was as a result of his new found love or as a result of just the right part at the right time, Hollywood took notice and so did the critics."
This does not jive.
What do you think?
Wow, Marie Dressler really does look like Tim McCoy in drag. WOW. Skeery!
Marie Dressler gives me the creeps....
poznaznorml-
I've just decided that maybe the scar is not a hive related scar...just a scar. Also, even though there are so many things that rule Judy Holliday out, the thing about the questions into the background making the hives worse make me think of her. Wasn't she under investigation by the Feds for being Red? If you were faking your background this would definitely make you nervous!
david that was too funny! nice job connecting them to Kevin Bacon.
calla that's an interesting breakdown with Kenny Baker and Judy Holliday.
there's so many posts flying bu it's hard to keep up.
this is the most fascinating and entertaining and consequentially educating BI ever!
twisted sister: I quit reading the board this morning and decided to start from scratch eliminating kay kendall since she won a golden globe and I decided to stick with oscars per the bl. I came back down to our same Marie Dressler, Judy Holliday, Alice Brady and Josephine Baker. I found a couple of interesting things. I caught up reading here but if I missed that his has been posted forgive me.
Judy Holliday has a biological son named Jonathan Oppenheim that works in editing today, has imdb profile. I found an email addy and sent one and asked if he was her real son just in case. Haven't heard back, but was worth a shot. Also her credits run 10 years past the win. The last appearence was on a tv game show when you can find online.
Marie Dressler is a really interesting character, quit litigious during her career and she wrote an autobiography. Also MIGHT have been a closeted lesbian, which doesn't help us. :) I found this about her and it is interesting to read. It details her travels and her break in hollywood to star with Chaplin in the first Tillie movie. Very interesting read. Her fall from a 30 foot height into the sea while in production is interesting. Here is the link for those are still pondering Marie to see if it helps you.
You have to scroll down to the English section:
http://www.cinetecadelfriuli.org/gcm/previous_editions/edizione2004/Tillie's.html
For me, these events kind of eliminate her. Her info isn't a thin bio...
That leaves me with Alice Brady and Josephine Hull
Still working these two. I am trying to find something more than Alice's face being slightly different. I see some change in the nose from picture to picture and her nose as a youth seemed larger and usually it is the other way around as we age. Anyway still working that one and Hull.
Again, sorry if anything is a repeat.
I am amazed and very proud of all of the work everyone here has done. The white house needs us all to research and solve its problems. :)!!!
Opps! I meant Josephine Hull...
dschingis - you're a great researcher. but, to be totally honest i think tim mccoy looks more like grant williams than marie dressler.
on a different topic i was looking at josephine hull's pictures on getty again and her hands looked awfully young for an older lady. also, on findagrave.net her tombstone is unmarked with nothing on it - no name, no nothing. i found that awfully strange for a famous oscar award winning actress. someone already pointed out there is no such cemetery that was listed on her imdb profile.
Has anyone brought up that Timmy as a woman may have starred in a sitcom? In the original clues the following was stated:
"During award season, Timmy began winning regularly for his role."
This sounds to me like a reoccurring role. Could he have been in the movies and regular television?
~Belle
Jusshopn I noticed that too - that Timmy being winning "regularly" for a role.
It either means
1. a recurring role, which would be a television appearance,
2. a movie that had a sequel (not likely)
3.a role played both on the stage and the screen. (so she could win a Tony and an Oscar, etc)
4. A single role that won multiple awards (Oscar AND GG)
Sometime I wonder if ENT knows just how many dead ends his little mazes produce. Makes me think he not only practices law - he teaches it. I haven't seen this much fact twisting since I was a 1L.
if that is the case could it be Shirley Booth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Booth
????
#####
Booth was 54 when she made her first movie, although she had successfully deleted a decade off her age, with her publicity stating 1907 as the year of her birth.
The correct year of birth was known by only her closest associates until her actual age was announced at the time of her death.
Her second starring film, a romantic drama About Mrs. Leslie (1954) opposite Robert Ryan, was released in 1954 to good reviews. (In 1953, Booth had made a cameo appearance as herself in the allstar comedy/drama Main Street to Broadway.
She spent the next few years commuting between New York and Southern California.
On Broadway, she scored personal successes in the musical By the Beautiful Sea (1954) and the comedy Desk Set (1955). Although Booth had become well known to moviegoers during this period, the movie versions of both Cuckoo, which was re-titled for the movie Summertime, and Desk Set went to Katharine Hepburn.
She returned to motion pictures in 1958 starring in two more films for Paramount, playing Dolly Gallagher Levi in Thornton Wilder's romance/comedy The Matchmaker (1958), which is the movie version of the nonmusical play that Hello, Dolly! was later based on, and playing Alma Duval in the drama Hot Spell (1958). She was named runnerup to Susan Hayward in I Want to Live! as the year's "Best Actress" by the New York Film Critics Circle for her two 1958 films.
In 1957, she won the Sarah Siddons Award for her work on the stage in Chicago. She returned to the Broadway stage in 1959, starring as the long-suffering title character in the Marc Blitzstein musical Juno, an adaptation of Sean O'Casey's 1924 classic play, Juno and the Paycock.
Frank Capra unsuccessfully attempted to bring Booth back to the screen with Pocketful of Miracles in 1961, but after screening Capra's original version, Lady for a Day (1933), Booth informed him there was no way she could match May Robson's moving, Oscar-nominated performance in the original and so Capra signed Bette Davis instead (who was indeed unfavorably compared to Robson by most reviewers when the film was released.)
Booth as Hazel (1961)
In 1961, Booth began starring in the television situation comedy Hazel, based on Ted Key's popular comic strip from the Saturday Evening Post about domineering yet endearing housemaid, Hazel Burke. The show reunited her with Harry Ackerman, who produced the show, and she won two Emmys, in 1962 and 1963, and new stardom with a younger audience. Booth received another Emmy nomination for her third season as "Hazel" in 1964 and in 1966 was also Emmy nominated for her performance as Amanda in a television adaptation of The Glass Menagerie.
She told the Associated Press in 1963, at the height of the show's popularity, "I liked playing Hazel the first time I read one of the scripts, and I could see all the possibilities of the character–the comedy would take care of itself. My job was to give her heart. Hazel never bores me. Besides, she's my insurance policy." She proved prescient with the last comment; the show was seen in syndicated reruns for many years after it ceased first-run production in 1966.
Booth was a distinguished and versatile performer, equally at home acting in theatre, radio, and on the big and small screen. She had a long and prestigious list of stage credits and made numerous appearances in TV movies and programs. Her last Broadway appearances were in a revival of Noel Coward's play Hay Fever and the musical Look to the Lilies, both in 1970.
After appearing as Grace Simpson in the TV series A Touch of Grace (1973), which was directed by Carl Reiner, she did voice work for the animated special The Year Without a Santa Claus (1974), playing Mrs. Santa, then retired.
Booth's second marriage, to William Baker in 1943, lasted until his death in 1951; the actress never remarried and had no children from either marriage. She died after a brief illness at age 94 at her home on the Cape Cod town of North Chatham, Massachusetts; actress Julie Harris lived nearby and would visit her. She is interred in Mount Hebron Cemetery, Montclair, New Jersey.
Here is another Marie Dressler link where it discusses her potential Lesbianism, Travels to Italy, Meeting the Pope and telling a reporter that hey needed an elevator installed at the Vatican and doing the "shimmy" at a society ball. Meeting president at the white house, her common law marriage etc. VERY FUNNY stuff if you have the time. She reminds me of Molly Brown in Titanic You have to scroll up to the top of the pages.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ahLtE77jYjYC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=marie+dressler+italy&source=web&ots=sdXvbHqUPY&sig=CjVuhAKIoh55j3EUjK3dbyem6nI#PPP1,M1
Blind Guy,
Did you send Johnathan Oppenheim an email that started out, Dear Sir, you don't know me, but I am a stranger who duct tapes his pecs and wears his wife's bra. By the way, was your mom a man with bad skin? Just wondering. Kisses, Blind Guy.
Or did you start it another way? :)
Shirley Booth's gay would be Anthony Perkins in "The Matchmaker"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051913/
Rakemama - thanks for responding.
I agree that being investigated in the red scare would make someone nervous!
But Ent specifically says that Timmy's great performance might be due to his being in love...so it sounds like someone who was very relaxed and comfortable at the time.
**Ent says the hives began during award season, so they would not have been there during the filming of the movie.**
Perhaps the scar is not related to the hives, but Ent seems to imply that the scar was a result of the skin condition/hives.
I am beginning to think this B.I. is B.S.
If Ent really had this info, why isn't he writing a book on it? I am even thinking that he's already written the book, and throwing the blind item out there is a way to drum up interest for the book.
What do you all think?
Dschingis I think this is the third time you've solved it, but don't quit searching because Tim died before 1980, so it's definitely not him.
Blind guy, I've moved on, too, and per one of my posts above I eliminated Judy Holliday and several others either because they worked too long after winning or because they died after 1985. This left me with only three:
Alice Brady
Marie Dressler
Josephine Hull
Alice Brady is the only one who is of slight build. Josephine Hull is the only one who won in the 1950's. The others won in the 1930's, and I think that the '30's would be too early to fit in the 50 year time frame.
You're right, the "regularly winning" role as a television role theory does revive Shirley Booth. I had ruled her out be/c Hazel.
acetomato,
shirley booth could be the answer to your questions #1, 3 and 4.
jusshopn: At this point it looks like we need to consider all possibilities. However, Ent said that he "rented the award winning film." And in the clarifications he says "there aren't that many people renting this particular film." That sure sounds like a movie.
Also, in the original BI, Ent says Timmy was "honored for being the Best Supporting Actress/Best Actress of the year." The Emmy awards use slightly different wording than that.
ace,
exactly. as far as i can remember from all these comments, the only other one who had a similar string of prizes for the same role is holliday.
harpo,
look at Shirley Booth. She fits the Best Actree category.
Alos, "Come Back Little Sheba" is definitely a classic, but not one most movie buffs watch --it's more for the old school theater crowds.
twisted sister... take the time to read my two marie dressler links. i had to post them on different comments because I had to go looking for it again. :) They are worth your time to read if marie is on your short list. Good we are at the same place then exactly. Let me know if you eliminate marie if you read those links. marie sure went through lots of courts and scandals to be a man in hiding who was worried he would be found out... under oath would probably not be a good place. :)
urgh! sorry about the typos ...
harpo,
look at Shirley Booth. She fits the Best Actress category.
Also, "Come Back Little Sheba" is definitely a classic, but not one most movie buffs watch --it's more for the old school theater crowds.
Blind guy, I'll read the links, but I honestly think we have to eliminate Marie, too. Why? Because even if Timmy died at the earliest possible date of 1980, then fifty years earlier only brings us to 1930, and Marie won in 1931. That doesn't allow for all the years of playing as a woman to get to her award winning performance.
I agree... seems like we eliminated her from two different directions and that is even better.
So of the narrowed down choices, who are the closeted A-list men?
Liza, thanks for the tip about Shirley Booth, but it doesn't look she's our girl. From her Wiki bio:
"Booth first attracted major notice as the female lead in the comedy hit "Three Men on a Horse" which ran almost two years in 1935 to 1937. During the 1930s and 1940s, she achieved popularity in dramas, comedies and, later, musicals. She ... enjoyed one of the most active careers on Broadway for over three decades."
Disregarding any other reason, her career is just way too long.
Sigh. Shirley Booth is out. She won her big awards for Come Back, Little Sheba (Tony, Oscar, GG and Foreign Film), but she kept on working, making movies and then television.
ENT says the award win brought scrutiny about her and that caused the nerves/hives/etc. and she didn't make many films afterwards.
Shirley did:
Come Back Little Sheba [Drama] (1952)
Main Street To Broadway [Drama] (1953)
About Mrs. Leslie [Drama] (1954)
Hot Spell [Drama] (1958)
The Matchmaker [Comedy] (1958)
That's six more years of solid film work. And then the tv stuff runs from 54-74.
She never went away. Ruled out.
Shirley Booth is a great guess. She won an AA, GG, an award at Cannes and a Tony for 'Come Back, Little Sheba' in 1952. She was nominated for two Baftas, one for 'Come Back, Little Sheba' and 'About Mrs. Leslie'. She won two Emmy's for her tv role in Hazel (nominated 2 other years as well).
According to IMDB 'Known for a while as Thelma Booth Ford.' Her birth name is Thelma Marjorie Ford.
She had two spouses but no children.
Question for all: Besides the Oscars and the GG, what other award would have been prestigious/televised?
Anything? The SAGs are too recent and I don't think the National Board stuff had "all those television viewers"
Is Judy Holliday ruled out? I found a quote from her.
"JUDY HOLLIDAY: "I can't remember my childhood. It's as if I've lost it. I guess I grew up assuming no one could remember. Friends used to tease me about not remembering people I'd met, places I'd been, but it didn't begin to bother me until recently. Then, when I had my own child and he began to walk and talk and do things, I tried to recall what I was like as a child, and I drew a complete blank. It's like not having a past, and I resent it. It's a gyp." That can be found here:http://www.wtv-zone.com/lumina/judy/quotes.html
Now wouldn't that just be convenient? But, there is the question of the son. She also is said (Judith Tuvim) to have graduated from Julia Richmond high school in 1938. I wish I had a way to see the yearbook. I am moving on the Alice Brady for the moment.
The screenplay for Arsenic and Old Lace was written by Julius J Epstein...I'm not suggesting that he is Ent's JJ, but maybe it is an omen...yes, I am 100% grasping at straws!
Rakemama, for Alice Brady, it's Cesar Romero. She starred with him in Metropolitan in 1935 and won her award in 1938.
Acetomato, there were no other BIG awards that were televised.
"Timmy grew up in the Northeast in a small town where he really truly didnt fit in"
At first reading I thought Timmy really truly didnt fit in because he was gay.
I spent hours researching the more popular guesses,and seemingly no one matches.
Then the "really, truly didnt fit in" started gnawing at what is left of my thought process.
Timmy was gay, but not open about it. Maybe he didn't "really truly fit in" because he was an immigrant or a child of immigrants or mixed race. Ent didn't say he was born in the north east , just grew up there.
He was slightly built,he had pale features. His lack of body hair might have been because he was Asian or part Asian? Sorry if that sounds demeaning or racist to anyone.
Topeka is in the north east part of Kansas.
So now I will waste more hours searching other best actress/supporting actress awards for an actress with an Asian heritage.
Jusshopn, Judy is ruled out because she worked for many years following her win.
Is anyone else surprised that some people are posting and reinventing the wheel at this point?
Zelda, I have been wondering the same thing...Asian or maybe Native American.
Twisted,
I'm just surprised that there have been no news reports of a rash of laptop or other computer related fires sweeping from coast to coast at this point. Or a herd of zombies chanting Timmy, Timmy, Timmy...
...Or that Google has noticed an upsurge in old Hollywood movie star searches
should be: Google hasn't noticed
twisted sister: Now that you have eliminated Marie Dressler from your list, that leaves Alice Brady and Josephine Hull. You know what I think about Alice Brady--my first long post was mostly about her (see 12:42 am). She lived out her life very much in the public eye and there is abundant evidence that she was female.
Josephine Hull is tantalizing, but what gives me pause is this: "She had a successful 50-year career on stage before taking some of her best roles to film." (Wikipedia) As I wrote earlier today, "she worked steadily on Broadway between 1923 and 1954, with big hits in 1936, 1941, 1944, and 1954. Her Hollywood career took place right in the middle of her stage fame (her 1950 Oscar was for reprising her stage role in Harvey)." That's not a career that you can fake up in a few years.
No one really fits the clues we have now. Something is misleading us in this BI. I'm inclined to think that good old JJ was either pulling Ent's leg or getting things a bit mixed up.
Ah that's right. SheTimmy only worked for a short time after her win which rules out Shirley Booth.
Ent, throw us a bone. Or maybe a couple of 'aint's'!
The part about Timmy not fitting in where he grew up matches well to what maureen found
Julian Eltinge link:
http://www.thejulianeltingeproject.com/
But the dates are off. He'd be in his 100's in the 1980's.
Zelda... Miyoshi Umeki in '57 as best supporting is your asian, but she doesn't work for some other reasons.
Rake...heee....maybe I should open my windows! Seriously, I'm surprised Shirley Booth is being thrown into the mix again when she clearly doesn't qualify. Oh well!
Blind guy, very interesting reads on Marie Dressler. I still don't think it's her.
As for costarring with a closeted A lister, I can't find anyone for Josephine Hull, can anyone else?
Also, in looking at the various movies she was in, I came upon this nebulous description for someone in Arsenic and Old Lace:
http://imdb.com/name/nm0018514/
He's probably not related, but for having done so much, they sure didn't go into detail.
Also the scar might be something as simple as a pock mark from chicken pox. Very noticeable even if you only have one.
What we also need to remember is Ent said someone correctly guessed who Timmy was on one of the blogs.
Harpo, what if the bio is all fabricated? We should probably not discount anyone based on the work done that we cannot really prove. And if she had an in on the Broadway front (her father), it might be easier to lie, since her father might be one of the 10 people in on this, and he could always lie to back up the story.
Twisted - I think we are going in circles a bit.
I don't know what else to do - no one wants to hear my Kay Kendall theory.
Maybe it's Gloria Swanson.
Twisted, re: John Alexander, I grew up in Ky, and Newport is in Northern Ky but the central part, not NE KY. Although, I realize Timmy grew up in the NE, not born there. Check out Timmy Hawkins on IMDB...big listing but no bio info or picture.
Oh crapster, Kay - you're right. ENT did say other blogs have guessed correctly.
He wouldn't say if anyone on this site was correct, but others are.
And then that one blog is completely WRONG.
Can we round up the other big blogs playing Pin-the-Win-on-Timmy?
Ace, I'm still not fully OFF the KK thing, so what's your theory?
My theory is that it is Kay Kendall, and she's not really British. She's am American actor named Timmy.
I can't get over her adam's apple and big honkin' feet.
Has everyone forgotten about Kenny Baker as the possible Timmy?
#1 He died in 1985
#2 He was born in Monrovia, CA ... ok, this may be a stretch, but couldn't you consider Monrovia to be Northeast Los Angeles? ;)
#3 One of the pics in the original blind item was identified as the "Miss Liberty" musical - and a TV episode named "Miss Liberty" is the most recent entry on Kenny's imdb page.
#4 He performed in "the Harvey Girls," which has a song called "On the Atchison, Topeka and the Santa Fe" (remember the reference to "Topeka" in the original blind item?)
#5 He's described as "boyishly good looking" and looks rather slight and has a high tenor singing voice.
I just read in his bio that he "retired from performing in the early 1950s and became a Christian Science practitioner and motivational speaker. Crap. Ok, scratch him!! I just am going to post this anyway since I took the trouble to write it out! ;)
Rake, not sure about Timmy Hawkins. Other than the first name, I'm not seeing any connection to anything.
Ace, I thought that was all of our theories as of earlier today, no? At least that's what we posted.
I'm still not off the Kay train, I'm just trying to eliminate the "won an Oscar" list.
Zelda, you're right, and trying to see something like that in a black and white film, isn't going to be easy.
I'm guilty of going round in circles! I'm now researching Margaret Rutherford. She won an AA and GG for supporting actress in 1963 for 'The VIPs' and did only two more films after that. She has an adopted son.
Other actress who won best supporting for both a GG and AA are:
(no GG prior to 1945)
1946 - Anne Baxter 'The Razor's Edge'
1947 - Celeste Holm 'Gentlemen's Agreement'
1949 - Mercedes McCambridge 'All the King's Men'
1950 - Josephine Hull 'Harvey'
1951 - Kim Hunter 'A Streetcar Named Desire'
1963 - Margaret Rutherford 'The VIPs'
Most of these women have been ruled out for one reason or another.
I posted a list last night of the plausible guesses from ONTD.
Fay Bainter
Teresa Wright
Ann Harding
Shirley Booth
Josephine Hull
Ann Magnani
Simone Signoret
Mercedes McCambridge
Elizabeth Hartman *golden globe movie with Dirk Bogarde Patch of Blue Went by the name Biff Hartman in hometown in NE Ohio
Jo Van Fleet
Agnes Moorehead
Eileen Heckart
Anne Revere
Sandy (Dale) Dennis * lied about being married
Alice Brady
Beatrice straight * scar
Claire Trevor
Kay Kendall
Jean Hagen
Alright kids, it's 10 til midnite and if Rake has any hope of taking care of her two lovely girl babies tomorrow she must go to bed! My husband is hollering, come to bed, Timmy-freak! Y'all don't stay up too long! I'm sure I'll be typing at you tomorrow.
-Kelly
I'm off, too, Kelly. To dream of Timmy.....lol.
I'm on the Judy Holliday train right now. Fast-forward this Youtube clip to about 2:40 and listen to her answer the question. It's downright scary!!
Calla, Judy Holliday worked for too many years following her win to be Timmy.
The reason I think SheTimmy won the best supporting award is the the hint that she won multiple awards for the same role.
Women who won the best actress award for both AA and GG in the 1940's and 1950's were:
Jennifer Jones
Ingrid Bergman
Jane Wyman
Olivia de Havilland
Shirley Booth
Audrey Hepurn
Grace Kelly
Anna Magnani
Joanne Woodward
Susan Hayward
All too famous or had long careers after their win. Anna being the exception.
Yes, a span of 10 years, during which she did only 6 movies ... which seems a poor showing post-Oscar. But yeah, I see the problem...
Here are some pics of psoriasis. If a well-known star were to have outbreaks like this, it makes sense that her career might be forestalled. The website also says it can be caused by stress.
Enty refers to Timmy having "a skin condition that prevented much hair growth on his body." The hives or outbreaks from psoriasis or a similar skin condition might do that temporarily, but I wonder what other skin conditions would result in hairlessness on the body. Alopecia?
twisted: i agree... after the reads on marie I decided she might be a bit to brazen to get hives from stress. :)
More on Judy Holliday - the original Blind Item says:
"Timmy the award winning actress was having trouble finding work because of his condition and so he saw his career slowly work its way back down the ladder over the course of three or four years."
Judy Holliday's career DID decline over about 4 years, and she had VERY LITTLE work after that.
Also, Judy Holliday apparently DID have a skin condition that required a lot of makeup to cover up ... it's already been referred to upthread, but I'm going to repost here for your reference:
http://blinditems.typepad.com/dish/2007/08/the-actress-who.html
"I can't Judy Holliday out of my head. She did B'way and H'wood, but didn't have a huge amount of work. She only had a couple of films after her Oscar for Born Yesterday, which fits, and she died at the young age of 43. She had a son, and nowhere near enough movies under her belt to qualify, but who knows...The reason I can't get her out of my head is I know an older lady (now in a nursing home) who knew her. I remember her telling me once that Judy Holliday had a bad skin condition. It had to be covered
up with loads of heavy makeup. She certainly had the personality. And she looked like a woman, not a man in drag, which is what the item says."
Judy Holliday's pics showing possible scar below left ear and on neck: here's one and here's the other.
First timer here but felt compelled to tell everyone how impressed I am with your research.
I don't have an answer but what about the Emmy's being an award show? This could explain the reoccuring role.
Sorry..I know wrong answer.
I dug out a lot of my old books on Hollywood and lucked upon a book by Garson Kanin. He came to H'wood in 1937 where he directed for many of the major studios and, coincidentally, directed the play 'Born Yesterday' starring Judy Holliday.
The first actress cast, Jean Arthur, wasn't working out. Here is the passage directly from the book describing how they gave Judy a shot at it:
Garson says, "I mentioned something about my difficulties to Mainbocher, who had designed Jean's clothes.
'Do you know Judy Holliday?' asked Main.
'From the Revuers? I asked. 'Sure, she's very good.'
'What about her?' he asked.
'Well, she's terrific, Main, but not for this.'
Kanin goes on to meet with Judy and her agent and says:
'Judy was a standout: pert, versatile, comical, talented. But as we talked that Sunday in NYC, she didn't look anything like the girl I had in mind.'
They start running out of time so he suggests to his producers:
'Listen, I said suddenly, 'what about Judy Holliday?'
'What are you talking about?' asked Max impatiently. 'The fat girl from the Revuers?'
End of book quote.
She went on to rehearse and learn the play in just four days and totally knocked Broadway dead. I've watched her on tons of clips in the past few days, and she does have a personality that just wouldn't quit.
Physically, she was pretty tall - between 5'8 and 5'10, and described as 'fat' by a producer of the time. Don't think that physically she's a match for Timmy. I still can't get the idea of Judy as Timmy out of my head, though - can't say why.
Okay,
My favorite answer, but for the concerns about working after the big award win:
Judy Holliday.
My second favorite answer:
Kay Kendall.
The only thing that really throws me off Kay is that Rex Harrison was a raging heterosexual. I can't find the angle for him to participate.
I was watching a YouTube clip of Judy Holliday - her dancing w/Dean Martin - and noticed that her arms & upper body were really larger than the 'ideal,' so it doesn't surprise me that people called her 'fat.' Thanks for that info, Beth!!
I think the New York Film Critics Circle awards are something we need to take into consideration. 1935 was the first year they gave out awards. Here's their website:
NY Film Critics Circle Awards
I'm reading the bio on Judy here
http://www.wtv-zone.com/lumina/judy/
and they say she was 5' 7" and her weight fluctuated between 120 and 150. That's definitely not fat. For a man that would be considered slight, no?
Also this is interesting:
Q: "What was the cause of Judy's death?"
A: At the time of her death, the cause was reported to be throat cancer because the real cause, breast cancer, was not considered a "socially acceptable" cause of death. She did have a benign tumor removed from her throat five years prior to her death, but recurring bouts with breast cancer is what ultimately claimed her.
**This could explain the scar. Or made up to explain the scar.
Q: "What was the date of Judy's death?"
A: Judy died at 5:00 am on June 7, 1965.
**The scar could theoretically be visible in 'The Bells Are Ringing' which has a date of 1961.
Assuming that is the source of the scar. And assuming the info is true.
I also found it interesting that she was a songwriter.
Some of her quotes are amazing too if she was indeed a man, for example:
"I hated the whole idea of being an actress. I used to throw up before every performance and cry afterward."
(about working with director George Cukor) "He didn't maintain my illusion of myself, he gave me an illusion of myself. Before I met him, I never thought of myself as an actress. Boy, he sidetracked me in a great way!"
ok, I just spent a couple of hours cutting and pasting images of Kenny Baker and Judy Holliday into Photoshop, and maybe I am just hallucinating at this point, but they do look similar. Judy Hollicay was 5'10, Kenny Baker was listed as 5' 9".They look very similar in the details of the face. He is cited as married with 3 children, having died in 1985 in Solvang CA. The listing comparing his career to Holiday's is eerie as well. Apparently he left the Jack Benny show in 1938 to go to The Fred Allen show. Judy Holliday starts in IMDB in 1938, altho Baker works until the 50's and Holliday's last film is 1960. Would be exhausting to keep up 2 schedules like that, even if they weren't exactly in the same place at the same time. It would be very interesting to compare the voices. Baker was a Tenor, can't find what Holliday was. Funny, though, one of her records has a song titeled "Trouble Is a Man."
Probably not, but would be incendiary if so.
Sorry if anyone has already posted this but here is a list of blogs I could find that discuss this BI:
http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/
http://blinditems.typepad.com/dish/2007/08/timmy-hint.html 0 official guess: Kay Kendall.
http://blinditems.typepad.com/dish/2007/08/the-actress-who.html: Official Guess Kay Kendall
http://members5.boardhost.com/pinkparlor/msg/1188488410.html
http://groups.google.com.nf/group/alt.gossip.celebrities/browse_thread/thread/1fc4fdaa9bd962ae
http://eisengeiste.blogspot.com/2007/09/greatest-blind-item-ever.html
http://www.datalounge.com/cgi-bin/iowa/forum/thread/gossip/5344646/page-1.html
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/bbs/message.php?page=1&showdate=9/2/07&messageid=432285&mpage=1
http://pjsplanet.blogspot.com/
http://www.zimbio.com/member/melody23/articles/340082/alt+showbiz+gossip+versus+Thing+Id
Im sure there are many more
Remember though, fat for a woman at the time could be considered small for a man...
The question though, is who is the A-lister if she's Timmy?
Beth - NY file awards:
... Nonetheless, confusion prevailed. In 1950, Anne Baxter persuaded Fox to campaign for her for lead nomination in All About Eve, thereby running against Bette Davis, who was the film's star. Had Baxter been nominated for a featured role, Davis would have won Best Actress. However, having already won Supporting Oscar in 1946 for The Razor's Edge, Baxter aspired to get the Oscar seal of approval as leading lady. As a result, Davis and Baxter canceled each other out, leaving the award to the least expected nominee, Judy Holliday in Born Yesterday...
...
Judy Holliday was the first actress to ever be simultaneously nominated for Golden Globe Awards in both the "Actress in a Leading Role - Musical or Comedy" and the "Actress in a Leading Role - Drama" categories. Stranger still was the fact that both nominations were for the same film, Born Yesterday.
Judy Holliday was the first actress to ever be nominated for Golden Globe Awards in both the lead (Born Yesterday) and supporting (Adam's Rib) actress categories in the same year.
Judy Holliday won both the Golden Globe Award for "Actress in a Leading Role - Musical or Comedy" and the "Best Actress" Academy Award in the same year for Born Yesterday.....
So I'm changing teams here.... She dies of cancer 15 years after the awards, with decreasing work after the award....
There's a MySpace page for Judy with tons of pictures.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=84130750
Her
blind guy,
i mentiones Miyoshi Umeki earlier. She quit after winning the oscar to take care of ther son (adopted). basically disappeared after being in a hit tv show --so much so there was speculation she was dead. she even missed the 75th anniversary of the oscars due to 'lack of interest'.
and there's kabuki
just saying.
whoever it is is probably spinning in their grave about now.
I'm reading something called "The Mother of all Blind Items".
My husband just went to bed, laughing and shaking his head.
kay,
she looks all woman to me, y/y?
I see that we're all on a Judy Holiday kick now (love it, y'all--keep digging!) However, twisted sister asked me (a while back now, I’m a slow writer), what if Alice Brady’s bio was fabricated? Also, many posters have suggested that William Brady was powerful enough to create a new female persona for Timmy. I have to disagree with that, because from start to finish, Alice Brady had a life that would be impossible, imho, for anyone (or even a group of people) to fake.
I'm definitely not suggesting that we rely on her (or anyone else's) reports of her life. We don’t have to, because she was a public figure on Broadway and in Hollywood whose life was continuously documented in reviews, articles, and photos. Consider this description of her stage career from the Encyclopedia Britannica (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9125393/Alice-Brady):
"In 1918 she returned to Broadway in the hit Forever After, and she subsequently enjoyed great successes in Zander the Great (1923), Old Mama (1925), The Bride of the Lamb (1926), Eugene O'Neill's Mourning Becomes Electra (1931; with Alla Nazimova), Mademoiselle (1932), and many other plays."
These were all Broadway hits that cover a span of 24 years. This means that her participation was documented in playbills, newspaper reviews, magazine articles, photos, etc. At the time, lots of people (including everyone on Broadway) would have known if she was making this sh*t up. Even today it is still relatively easy to find all kinds of documentation of her life—a quickie Google search got me:
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Theatre-Program-Alice-Brady-Sinners-1915-NYC_W0QQitemZ140149737439QQihZ004QQcategoryZ60411QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Photo-ALICE-BRADY-KENNETH-MCKENNA-Oh-Mama-1925_W0QQitemZ290157061532QQihZ019QQcategoryZ778QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Theatre-Program-Alice-Brady-Bride-of-the-Lamb-1926-NYC_W0QQitemZ140075531479QQihZ004QQcategoryZ60411QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/1931-Theatre-Guild-Magazine-Alice-Brady-Ed-Wynn_W0QQitemZ250154073095QQihZ015QQcategoryZ280QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItem
In my original post about Brady (12:42 am in this thread) I noted that her Wiki bio says she made over 50 silent films. To substantiate this, here’s a sampling of photos from her silent films: http://silent-movies.com/Ladies/PBrady.html
Her work in silents is important, since it doesn't follow Ent's timeline. But for the sake of argument, let's say that her silent work was borrowed from some other Alice Brady or something. She still started in talkies way too early (1933) to fit Timmy’s timeline (after the peak years of musicals). Also, in talkies alone, she had a five-year career before she won the Oscar.
My earlier post gave more timeline discrepancies, plus juicy stuff about Brady and Clark Gable; here I’ll just repeat this description of some events that took place nine years before her Oscar win (from Warren Harris’s biography of Clark Gable).
"Thirty-seven-year-old Alice Brady ... was the daughter of eminent producer William A. Brady and dancer Rose Marie Rene, she had showbiz in her veins... and was a playgirl who often overdid the fun. Her boozing lost her the lead in Eugene O'Neill's Strange Interlude [1928], where she was replaced at the last minute by Lynn Fontanne."
Eugene O'Neill, Lynn Fontanne, and Strange Interlude are still recognizable names today, indicating the level at which Brady was playing in those days. These events were public knowledge, and no one would have been able to just breeze into Hollywood with a made-up story like that--there were too many people who shuttled between Broadway and H'wood to get away with it.
So with the 12:42 post and this one, I rest my case against Alice Brady being Timmy. There are so many posts that this will probably get lost in the shuffle, but I'm still having lots of fun writing these things. Enjoy!
acetomato777 said...
I'm reading something called "The Mother of all Blind Items".
You must be on Survivor Sucks, acetomato!
I'm with you, harpo. It can't be Alice Brady. No matter how tantalizing the mystery man stealing her oscar story is - Alice Brady was a real woman with a very public life for a long time before her win.
random note: on another blog I keep reading posts pointing to Cary Grant as the closeted A lister. WTF? Cary Grant was married five times. Sooo not gay.
You know where I am, Beth? I'm down the rabbit hole called TIMMY.
Best. Blind. Item. Ever.
By the time we are done we'll have outed half of Hollywood as drag queens - HAH!
Similar Scars?
Have we already discussed this after 700-plus comments?
Maggie McNamara and Grant Williams both have scars above their left eyebrow. However, after close scrutiny, Maggie's scar is longer and more to the right, whereas Grant's scar is rounder and over the left eyebrow a little more.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Maggie+McNamara+&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/horror/grantwilliams/grantwilliams10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.briansdriveintheater.com/grantwilliams.html&h=432&w=330&sz=16&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=6o0pdyFTKAnLoM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgrant%2Bwilliams%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
I think Judy looks very feminine in the photos on her MySpace page but if only 10-15 people knew then she must have been a very convincing female.
There have been rumors about Cary Grant being bisexual.
I love to think of him as my secret boyfriend when I watch him on film. He's dreamy.
Here's a rumor:
Hollywood legend CARY GRANT's shocking new biography alleges the late actor shared a secret "gay marriage" with American movie hunk RANDOLPH SCOTT.
MARC ELIOT's book CARY GRANT: GRANT'S 'SECRET SIXTH MARRIAGE' goes a long way to blow away the NORTH BY NORTHWEST icon's image as a heterosexual lothario, although chronologically it would have been his first marriage.
Eliot claims Grant embarked on a homosexual relationship with the rugged actor, who was known as Randy, after they met on the set of 1932 movie HOT SATURDAY, and their mutual physical attraction was immediate and strong.
The actors lived together for the next 12 years, but separated when Randy became jealous of Grant's blooming romance with actress VIRGINIA CHERRILL.
I love the Judy Holliday/Kenny Baker connection, I have been playing in photoshop too. I cant get over how they have the same nose that looks long at some angles and like a button nose in other shots, they both have the same cheek dimples, and the cute elfin face. Its so close.
I cant get over the FBI files they have on her, They use the information that she supplied to Life magazine. You would think they would have found out if she used a fake name, but the file was full of inaccuracies and I guess they kept mistaking her for the characters she played. The communist inquiry didn't happen until 2 years after Born Yesterday. She worked with Lon McCallister (who was popular in the 40's and never married) in 1944 Winged Victory 6 year before born yesterday but only 2 movies before.
Sooo I don't know if its here but I'm slightly convinced. If it is here Timmy worked a lot as a man, because she does not have a large resume.
Sorry, OT again. I've just been watching a few Judy Holliday clips on UTUBE. She reminds me so much of Melanie Griffith!
Okay, back to my clips.
Also, someone was wondering what other awards were around back then. Cannes (Palme d'Or; Grand Prix, etc.) began in 1939. BAFTA (British Academy of Film & Television Arts) in 1947 and Emmy's (t.v.) in 1949.
Odd, but true so far . . . I keep looking for variations of this Blind Item as some kind of Gay Hollywood Urban Legend.
It seems like it is an old story.
But there isn't any older version of Timmy that I can find. Anyone else?
Did anyone ever figure out the picture of the car (from a movie) was from? I haven't found it yet and I apologize if it's been posted.
If we know that the Saloon was the Golden Horseshoe Saloon (Disney) and then the other picture was from Miss Liberty there has to be something there.
The Saloon opened in 1955. The website says the picture is circa late 1950's.
Miss Liberty (at the Imperial, I couldn't find any other) ran from Opening: Jul 15, 1949 Closing: Apr 8, 1950
Could these have been plays/gigs for TImmy after he gave up being the award winning actress?
I wish I knew about that car picture. I wonder if anyone over at the Turner Classic Movies board could ID it? Someone tell me if it's already been identified and if not I will go to TCM and post the pic.
Can't be Miyoshi, she starred in The Courtship of Eddie's Father in the 1970s, well past her AA win in the 50s.
No AA winners fit, some retired by dying, but most seemed to keep working. This BI can't be real if the award is an Oscar.
I need to revisit Kenny Baker.
OT - Randolph Scott is smoking hot too! Now I'm imagining all the hot monkey sex he and Cary had in their *cough* 'Bachelor Hall'. There's images of both of them together on getty images. Hot, hot, hot... /OT
The Golden Horseshoe Revue - led by Don Novis - . ..
The original Slue Foot Sue was Judy Marsh. It is very hard to find a picture of her that is clear or large. The official site says she only did the first season in 1955, then was replaced by Betty Taylor, who stayed the next 31 years.
If the Golden Horseshoe is a clue, maybe it is be/c that is where Timmy worked as a woman on stage?
The reason given for Judy Marsh's leaving the show: backstage flirtations.
LOL.
If someone already ran down Judy Marsh - please, please stop me from repeating the chase.
I never did like Disney's Frontierland.
After looking at the Judy Holliday pics on the Myspace page, I'm not so sure anymore about her being Timmy.
I know this was brought up before and I forgot - there are photos of her as a very young girl (looking very much like a girl...and like herself).
Also, there is a photo of her with her infant son playing the piano.
Now all she doesn't seem that plausible to me ... *sob*
I am starting to think that we have been misled too much in this item. I know he can't make it easy for us, but this is getting ridiculous! *sigh*
Help me out here, guys (and dolls).
Photo of the Golden Horseshoe Revue
Judy Marsh, the original Slue Foot Sue, only played there 1955 and then falls off the planet.
Can't find her anywhere.
This is the type of thing I expect to see for Timmy the Actress. A very popular role and then poof!
Another blog has the info on the car in the pix. It's from teh 1940s, and I think the other bloggers decided that was the point of it - it nods to an era.
ok all..i'm back with the list of A list closeted stars i've found so far that never married "always single" lover she was involved with, and shared a LEADING ROLE with prior to the role in question....i am still guessing KK and going with GRANT WILLIAMS as timmy...because the cleft chin in his photos was prob plastic surg after the fact....we put the photos together, it could def be the same person, scroll back to sat morning to see my other comments about her fake bio etc... we're about 90 percent sure.... the musical background and the theatre experience..whatdoyathink?
Ok I know I'm not on the KK train and we've exhausted that theory to pieces and I'm going round and round BUT I'm looking at Kenny Baker's photos on getty images (there's just two listed for him). One is a side shot from the film 'Turn Off The Moon' and wow, if that's not KK's profile I'll eat my sock. The pointy upturned nose and chin!
Plus when ever anyone mentions her big honkin feet I get the giggles.
Myrlin got me checking the Golden Globes, and I found an interesting factoid: That award ceremony wasn't telecast until 1958, the year KK won. It was just a local telecast until 1964, but even that would meet Ent's vague description of the TV viewers. (That still doesn't make it the "very big" award, though.)
Furthermore, KK may have an exact match for the closeted A-list star in a previous Hollywood film. One problem I’ve always had with her was that Les Girls appeared to be her first H’wood film. But her film just before Les Girls was Quentin Durward (1955). Since it was shot in England, I assumed that it was also for Rank, but imdb lists it as an MGM film, and her co-star in that movie was Robert Taylor. Taylor's first wife was Barbara Stanwyck, who was a closeted Hollywood lesbian, so he may have had a secret life, too. Stanwyck's Wikipedia page even says that "their 1939 marriage was arranged with the help of the studio." Taylor apparently did have affairs with women, and he seems to have been quite the jerk--he named names for HUAC in 1947. That gives me pause, since open-hearted Kay doesn't seem the type to fall for that.
I'm not switching teams to the KK train, and I hate to give her advocates any more ammunition, but I have to admit that based on the evidence she would fit the BI better than anyone else so far--if only she were a man. And American.
(I can't wait to get my hands on her bio, which should provide lots of other reasons why she can't be Timmy.)
OMG, look at the time. Now I really have to go to bed.
Forget it, Robert Taylor was so married--I even said it in my posting. I'm too tired to make sense anymore.
remember if we're correct the female bio is a big bag of bullshit, the only thing varifiable is documented roles we can check...i still think REX was a friend and knew about it from the begining....the original surprise female role at the theatre with great reviews..he could def come up with english background americans would not suspect..he was just a friend not gay lover
here's some more kenny baker footage, they are outtakes.
i'm pretty sure he sounds and looks more female than his costars.
http://www.efootage.com/view_clip.php?clip_id=10931
gay lover def dirk bogarde "biggest box office actor in 1950s" never married...always single
she had a lead role with this english actor prior to her big award season
My head is spinning!
But just a thought, could our persona have been an hermaphrodite, and bought up as a boy but who actually should have been bought up as a girl? As in, it has the tackle, it's a boy? Nowadays, they are very careful to try and make sure that an hermaphrodite grows into the strongest feelings they have, instead of forcing them to be one way or another.
I'm just saying, maybe that's the bigger 'scandal' in all of this.
And I'm not seeing KK in this at all....
I think it's Judy Holliday. The closeted actor is Spencer Tracy. They acted together in Adam's Rib. I think Hepburn was really a buddy/beard to Tracy.
An MGM insider is quoted as saying: "We knew Spencer wrestled with homosexuality." This may have been the real reason why the guilt-ridden actor drank so heavily - Hepburn attributed his alcoholism to "over-sensitivity to life."
pleases proove me wrong and i'll keep looking.......but the photographed memorial, no wake,no funeral and all photos leading up to death from cancer - she looks beautiful! and healthy! and the story published that rex never told her she was dying???
nosey- but spence was married
lots of closted may be gays but hard to find the ones "always single" trust me...a made a list..very short.....also actors that died of aids complications 1980-85..only 2
there's pictures on gettyimages of judy holliday from 1962. and they are not airbrushed or touched. just regular pap pictures. wouldn't her skin be flawed?
and josephine hull kept a diary her life, which is published on the internet if you search. plus pictures of her young. i'm not buying that either.
Calla:
Holy Topeka! I just looked at the photos you linked to on Judy Holliday's My Space page. If you scroll down to the picture of her little boy wearing a cowboy hat and put it up next to this picture of Kenny Baker:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/0/03/20070513015813!KennyBakerStageDoorCanteen.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:KennyBakerStageDoorCanteen.jpg&h=525&w=367&sz=26&hl=en&start=14&um=1&tbnid=OugFVjjgEg4WUM:&tbnh=132&tbnw=92&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkenny%2Bbaker%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGGL,GGGL:2006-27,GGGL:en%26sa%3DN
the little guy looks like a younger version of Kenny!
Yowza!
i've been researching the topeka angle/clue and maybe that old theatre was where timmy first played the female..so many big names played there but i can't find cast lists..if rex harrison was there back in that time frame i'd be convinced...that's where it all started, from that role, some people would know from that night on..a man who understuddied a female lead at the last second and with great reviews
K:
I've been thinking along the same lines as you! Okay, it could be that I'm just overly tired, but I think I'm beginning to put some things in order. What if Judy Holliday was born of ambiguous sexual gender and was raised as a girl ("really and truly didn't fit in"). Then, when she went on to pursue her acting career in the theater, changed her gender to male (because maybe she/he had developed more of a male sexuality/identity). After experiencing minimal success as a male performer, Timmy began to work in theater again to earn extra money. When he stood in for the absent actress and achieved such overwhelming appreciation "he basically reversed his original trek to LA and began performing in small town theaters again, but this time as a woman!" Timmy "reversed" his sexuality again. He was gone for two years and possibly had some breast enhancement done during that period. Okay....what do you think? Feasible or not?
just putting thoughts out there..we're thinking that first performance on stage was like a fluke/joke... he/they got away with it in a pinch but, when those good reviews came along...it was like hey wait a sec i've been doin this for a while and no one takes notice until i'm a girl? i could do this! this would be a conversation.. not in his own head.. he would have encouragement and help..nobody could have guessed it would go so far, that his talent would be recognized with a huge award, a small group of people knew and helped with the cover up....KK works for us more than any others
judy holliday worked from 1938-1963 no? ithought that eliminates her from orig blog and clues ..no?
OMG! I think Katherine Hepburn is the closeted A Lister. She was in Adam's Rib (1949). Then I guess Kenny Baker must be Timmy? Someone up above this thread mentioned that Katherine Hepburn revealed in a book that she had an affair with Judy Holliday. If its not her, then it must be Spencer Tracy....but I think I'm leaning more toward Kate H.
It's much more SCANDALOUS!
oh maureen...you silly... and funny.. she was married and a woman..not "always single" man but yes def A list
we're sticking to it for now anyway #1 DIRK BOGARDE- closeted A lister, never married #2 timmy, GRANT WILLIAMS, #3 female persona KAY KENDALL
captivagrl:
Okay, I guess not, I didn't reread the BI before I posted, but if Judy Holliday were a hermaphrodite/had ambiguous genitalia(male and female present), then she might very well be attracted to women. In fact, if she had been raised as a girl, which photos of her childhood show, she actually spent the great majority of her life as a women, which she is (sort of).
And that's my final answer! I really think Judy /Kenny are Timmy, Spencer Tracy is probably the A lister, and I have no explanation as to why EL said that she only worked 3-4 years later. Her performances definitely declined sharply. Maybe it was memory loss on JJ's part....
MAUREEN i hope you or me or someone gets it correct!it's drivin me nuts!
I don't think anyone upthread has posted this, apologies if I've missed it. This extremely detailed chronology of Judy Holliday's early life, including pictures of her as a child, effectively (for me, at least) eliminates her from consideration.
http://www.wtv-zone.com/lumina/judy/chrono1.html
Example (from Dec. 15, 1933): "At the age of 12, Judy wins a city-wide essay competition sponsored by the State Chamber of Commerce. As a result, Judy's picture appears in all the New York daily newspapers." Kind of hard to fake that--anyone have access to old NY archives?
On the Kendall front--I watched "Les Girls" tonight and didn't notice any obvious scar on KK, though she did seem to be wearing more makeup than the other "Girls" and showed at angles a bit of Adam's apple. But as I said to my boyfriend (who is utterly convinced it's her): Just because she's not our 'Timmy' doesn't mean she's not *also* a man.
I mean, wouldn't it be an absolute riot if it turned out there were more than one?
Beth - the New York Film Critics Award is not the big award nor is it televised. I think we need to stick to the Oscars or Golden Globes.
NoseyParker - Spencer Tracy was married, he can't be the never married closeted A-lister.
Remember what EL told us:
Timmy the actress gave up acting very soon after winning the award, so when you look at IMDB and see an actress worked for many years after her win, the guess doesn't make any sense despite the fact that everything else fits.
THAT rules out Judy Holliday, and I'm starting to think JH might have been the guess he was talking about.
Given that fact, if we're talking about the Oscars:
Alice Brady
Josephine Hull
Marie Dressler - she won too early to really be Timmy,however, if you take the 50 year time frame into consideration.
If we're talking about Golden Globes:
Kay Kendall
You all get your own awards for staying up so late and working on this!
Wouldn't it be hilarious if someone found this web page years from now and recycled the BI....I wonder how many times TomKat would be guessed....:D
Just scrolled through miles of posts from last night! (with my husband chattering away to me and asking me "Are you still looking at that thing?"---I could kill him sometimes.) I have several comments and questions. First of all some one asked again what the car pic was and I posted upthread that it is a still from the trailer for Sunset Boulevard. I posted a link there but do a google image search for SB, scroll through a few pages and you will find it. Btw...SB is 1950.
A couple of questions...is there a trick to marking off where you last read? Or do you just have to wade through like I did.
Also, I am new to this and wonder how often ENT posts? He certainly has to comment on a thread this big; I am hoping for more clarification.
Mornin' all. Can't stay but someone just upthread asked about the car-in-street photo... another poster found it was taken from intro or trailer of Sunset Blvd. So early 50s.
Also at some point (mind is whirling) I looked at the BAFTA awards and gave up. I can't remember if it was because I couldn't find anything except recent past. Anyway, apologies to UK readers but it just didn't seem to fit the "big" award description as the BAFTAs don't get much publicity here in US.
Continuing that thought... let me take this opportunity to rule out KK yet again.... she was a BIG star in England in the 50s and as such, accustomed to public scrutiny so the sudden attack of hives does not fit.
Also thanks upthread to Miss Bliss for posting the other Timmy blogs.
Regarding Kenny Baker being Timmy - I think we need to look elsewhere. The last line in his bio really sours him for me:
"Retiring from performing in the early 1950s, he became a Christian Science practitioner and motivational speaker."
Lilandorth: Look at right-side column > under Google ad > 8/26-9/02 > Timmy Hint. Click on that and Timmy Hint page opens with comments underneath. Keep page open and just hit refresh when you want to update. Browser will jump to where you stopped reading, with new posts underneath. Hope this helps.
It works!
Thanks Gillian
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